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Thread: Cabot Guns---Too Expensive for the average Joe!

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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason8844
    I have a question for all those who have metal-working knowledge because a Cabot Gun has interchangeable parts due to precise machining. When you change out a part due to wear, will it really fit as well as new? Because when two parts rub together and cause friction, don't both parts wear and not just one? Would this mean, that when you drop in a new part, say a slide, the frame has already experienced wear from the previous slide and normal use the fit, would still be off and not as precise as original specs?

    Does my question make any sense? I am not sure if I am wording it correct.
    Actually it is one of the 1st serious question I have seen posed that makes sense. There will be wear of the parts regardless of fitment as they move against each other. Precision fitting may slow that process but it will occur nonetheless. Nothing made by man lasts forever. How that affects drop in parts is another issue depending on the amount of wear present on the "mating part(s)". To re-achieve that like new precision fit for that replacement part it would most likely have to be oversized and then hard fit utilizing a hand fit process or in Cabots case "machined down to fit precisely". This would likely involve a trip back to Cabot. The part may be able to be "drop in" but your not going to have that "precision fit" they are building their name on. Precisely why I can't see the justification for the cost factor. All metal parts have a finite life span. To be fair I'm sure you are looking at many many rounds before anyone will notice any appreciable difference.

    One of the reasons I can't see this idea taking off unless they can decrease their manufacturing costs. You can purchase a great shooting, long lasting hand fit 1911 for a whole lot less. The whole concept may be flawed by design. Bob

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by boblenaere
    Actually it is one of the 1st serious question I have seen posed that makes sense. There will be wear of the parts regardless of fitment as they move against each other. Precision fitting may slow that process but it will occur nonetheless. Nothing made by man lasts forever. How that affects drop in parts is another issue depending on the amount of wear present on the "mating part(s)". To re-achieve that like new precision fit for that replacement part it would most likely have to be oversized and then hard fit utilizing a hand fit process or in Cabots case "machined down to fit precisely". This would likely involve a trip back to Cabot. The part may be able to be "drop in" but your not going to have that "precision fit" they are building their name on. Precisely why I can't see the justification for the cost factor. All metal parts have a finite life span. To be fair I'm sure you are looking at many many rounds before anyone will notice any appreciable difference.

    One of the reasons I can't see this idea taking off unless they can decrease their manufacturing costs. You can purchase a great shooting, long lasting hand fit 1911 for a whole lot less. The whole concept may be flawed by design. Bob
    I do not consider this the only serious question here, however.
    If moving parts are correctly manufactured, the maker will design which part will wear the most, thus will have a great deal of control as to which parts will need to be replaced and how often. This is done by controlling surface hardness of the parts. This can be affected by owners who remove most or all of the hardened surface, obviously if no "tweaking" needs to be done there is less loss of control. I would expect that any part of a "properly" designed and built machine will have "drop in" parts available that fit as well as the originals.
    "Where is the wisdom that we have lost in knowledge?" T.S. Elliot
    Dominus Vobiscum . . . <))>(
    Last edited by dV8r; 28th September 2011 at 17:56. Reason: SP


  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by dV8r
    I do not consider this the only serious question here, however.
    If moving parts are correctly manufactured, the maker will design which part will ware the most, thus will have a great deal of control as to which parts will need to be replaced and how often. This is done by controlling surface hardness of the parts. This can be affected by owners who remove most or all of the hardened surface, obviously if no "tweaking" needs to be done there is less loss of control. I would expect that any part of a "properly" designed and built machine will have "drop in" parts available that fit as well as the originals.
    If an original part fails & the replacement "drop in part" part is made to original specs (and it would have to be as the mfg does not have a crystal ball to determine the amount of wear imposed on the mating parts) then it can not fit to the same specifications as it did in the original new pistol with regard to the part it was in contact with; it is a physical impossibility. For example if the mating part had worn down 1/1000 of an inch (just an arbitrary example) then the original fit would be off by that same amount. Bob

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by boblenaere
    If an original part fails & the replacement "drop in part" part is made to original specs (and it would have to be as the mfg does not have a crystal ball to determine the amount of wear imposed on the mating parts) then it can not fit to the same specifications as it did in the original new pistol with regard to the part it was in contact with; it is a physical impossibility. For example if the mating part had worn down 1/1000 of an inch (just an arbitrary example) then the original fit would be off by that same amount. Bob
    "does not have a crystal ball to determine the amount of wear "
    They have better than a this, they designed and built it. They know the "Range of all Tolerances". Albeit, there is some faith in the owner involved for proper maintenance.

    "can not fit to the same specifications as it did in the original new pistol"
    Not true. Specifications are not for 1 exact size but rather for a range. That range is key to making things work well and last a long time.
    There NOTHING in this world that is "Perfect" all the time.
    It is the "Range of Tolerance" that makes for "Excellence" This is true of man made objects and of man himself.

    "Where is the wisdom that we have lost in knowledge?" T.S. Elliot
    Dominus Vobiscum . . . <))>(
    Last edited by dV8r; 28th September 2011 at 17:59.


  5. #135
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    Range of Tolerance where a machine will function and operate is one thing. Precision tight tolerance being the mantra this company is touting is a different beast & one that will wear away. Proper maintenance will slow down wear but parts still do wear and the "Precise Fit" will be different. In a previous life I owned a chain manufacturing company and made the tools for those machines. I had to make the tools & various parts as they wore down. They had to be hand fit with a high degree of precision. Tolerances changed over time as did the dimensions of the parts we replaced to achieve the same fit & function.

    With this pistol if a part breaks and has to be replaced with a drop in part manufactured to specific dimensions will that affect accuracy & function? It should but the degree of change will in large be subject to the amount of wear present in the mating parts.

    I think we are basically saying the same thing just in a different light. It would most likely take a LONG time & a lot of use before any appreciable difference would be seen, but changes would occur. My point is I just don't think this approach justifies 5K. Basically all pistols are designed to operate within a range of tolerances; some are just more precise than others. YMMV. Bob

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by boblenaere
    Range of Tolerance where a machine will function and operate is one thing. Precision tight tolerance being the mantra this company is touting is a different beast & one that will wear away. Proper maintenance will slow down wear but parts still do wear and the "Precise Fit" will be different. In a previous life I owned a chain manufacturing company and made the tools for those machines. I had to make the tools & various parts as they wore down. They had to be hand fit with a high degree of precision. Tolerances changed over time as did the dimensions of the parts we replaced to achieve the same fit & function.

    With this pistol if a part breaks and has to be replaced with a drop in part manufactured to specific dimensions will that affect accuracy & function? It should but the degree of change will in large be subject to the amount of wear present in the mating parts.

    I think we are basically saying the same thing just in a different light. It would most likely take a LONG time & a lot of use before any appreciable difference would be seen, but changes would occur. My point is I just don't think this approach justifies 5K. Basically all pistols are designed to operate within a range of tolerances; some are just more precise than others. YMMV. Bob
    Time will tell...
    From my 40+ years of experience in manufacturing, machining and automation, I believe that you will be surprised by the outcome. I doubt that I will be around to see this in 10-20 years, just hope that you all are.
    "Where is the wisdom that we have lost in knowledge?" T.S. Elliot
    Dominus Vobiscum . . . <))>(

  7. #137
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    dV8r: First I hope you are around in 10-20 years. And agree that down the road we may have some more amazing computerized machining processes that will be able to produce affordable, quality firearms with an increased longevity in regards to precision performance. For me I can get a good 1911 below a grand with great shooting ability and that will last a long time (COLT is a good example.) To me that is a great value and a quality firearm which works well right out of the box. I can put a little dough into it and tweak it or pay a little more (under 2 grand) and get a Les Baer and have a superb 1911 which to me is also a great value. Paying 4-5 grand to pay for and accomodate Cabot's bloated manufacturing costs represents no value to me and in my opinion is money that can be much more wisely spent elsewhere. Whoopee I can drop in a part if it fails; with the 4 grand I would save by buying a Colt I can have a whole lot of $$ to a. fix, adjust, fine tune & improve it either myself or pay someone to do it. And still have a whole lot of $$ left over for ammo etc. b. buy 4 of them and not worry about anything. Most people will never be able to utilize the full accuracy potential of any of these pistols if they even possess it (we have not even had any validation of how they perform at this point yet everyone is falling all over themselves to try to justify Cabots inflated prices).

    There are some gorgeous custom made guns that I would be willing to part with significant money to own. Some pistols may appreciate in value. Looking at Cabots line I frankly don't think they are very good looking pistols and I doubt they will appreciate in value; where is the collectibility? If anything a buyer is more likely going to take a big hit on depreciation of these guns.

    If Cabot had used their processes to come up with their own unique, groundbreaking handgun design that would have peaked my interest. But to take a 100 hundred year old design and dramatically increase its production costs without any real significant valuable benefit to the end user????
    Last edited by boblenaere; 30th September 2011 at 05:02.


  8. #138
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    We seem to have reached a point at which we're just rehashing the same arguments. It will be interesting to see what Rio Vista Slim has to say after he visit the folks at United and tries out one of the guns.

    At the end of the day, whether Cabot has anything to offer will be decided in the marketplace.

    So we'll call it a day here.

    DVC
    adapt, improvise, overcome
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
    "One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

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