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Thread: Violation of Col. Cooper's rule.

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  1. #11
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
    Location
    Washington State
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    I don't see it as a disadvantage.

    We are too set on a two hand grip, and fail miserably at one handed shooting. We tend to practice when the weather is good, can attain all the basic shooting fundamentals, thus we don't push ourselves to do things that might, and often do occur on the street in actual shootings.

    With the proper use of some of the light techniques, I really don't feel that I'm using one hand, it feels like a very stable two handed foundation.

    When the 1911 came about, one handed shooting was about all that was taught in the military. Not saying it's the best way, but we certainly have lacked in one handed shooting proficiency over the years.
    If it isn't durable, it isn't reliable.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    19th November 2007
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    My handgun has a light mounted on it. My Duty Belt and pants pocket have a light on or in them.

    The flashlight is for seeing if it is a verified threat. The light on the gun is for when it has been determined that the possible threat is indeed a threat. Thus no violation of the rules. Also, having both gives one greater flexability and doesn't mire one in to any single response. It's nice to be able to roll a light across a floor to see what's in a room, should the need arise.

    Biker

  3. #13
    Join Date
    18th December 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
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    For my needs I do not need a gun mounted light, I was reading the Dallas paper one day last week, it had a story of a drug raid in Mesquite, TX. where a police officer accidentally fatally shot an unarmed suspect while attempting to turn on his pistol mounted light.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    15th August 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryM
    Pistol-mounted tac-lights require you to point the pistol at something you may or may not be willing to destroy. Holding the tac-light in one's off hand mandates a one-handed grip. Comments please. Thanks, Henry.
    I am practicing one hand prip using weak hand and strong hand. I'm at least improving. Reason for that is one of my limbs can still shoot properly if one of it gets incapacitated.
    I'm still thinking of acquiring a dawson light rail but I don't have a need for it yet.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    10th September 2011
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    Colorado
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    Sorry for the overly long post but this question really got me thinking.

    I think the advantages of a weapon mounted light greatly outweigh their undesirable characteristics such as pointing your weapon at something you do not want to destroy. Allow me to paint a hypothetical picture using words.
    You come home from a long day of work and it is pitch black outside, as you approach your front door you notice that it has been kicked in and is laying in splinters on the ground in front of you. The interior of your house has been trashed, none of the lights are working and worse yet you can hear something rummaging through the debris. Upon calling the police they tell you that they are extremely busy for whatever reason and it may be as much as 15 minutes before they can have a unit to your location, they recommend that you do not enter the residence but seek shelter at a neighbor’s house until they arrive and assess the situation. But you remember that you left your 50lbs of gold bullion sitting on your desk (Very Hypothetical at this point) and are not willing to wait for the police. Upon entering the house you hear more rummaging and crashing about, it could be thieves or it could just be your blind 200 pound bull mastiff frightened by his changed surroundings. At this point you are quite scared but you can’t take the chance of thieves stealing your gold, your adrenalin begins to pump.

    (Now this results in different symptoms for different people but it’s not uncommon to get a bit of tunnel vision along with a loss of your fine motor skills.)

    So the question is once your make your way to your gun safe do you grab your Mag Light and pistol with no light or do you grab for the pistol with a weapon light. If you grab for your pistol and the flash light because you are worried about pointing your weapon at something you are not willing to destroy, you have to admit that when you are clearing your house you main focus will be on the area illuminated by the flashlight and you will trying to keep your weapon in your peripheral vision or possibly in a close retention hold. All of a sudden you hear and loud crash at your 8 o’clock you spin around towards the noise and the flash light illuminate’s ___________ (Fill in the Blank) rushing towards you.

    It could be the bull mastiff or it could be the bad guy intent to smash you skull in with a big brick of gold. The bottom line is that it takes time to react and in a hypothetical situation like the one above the BG already has the upper hand because his eyes are already adjusted to the dark and he has already begun the attack. Those few precious tenths of a second that it takes to adjust your body or arms to bring the weapon to bear on the BG could possibly cost you your life. That is why if hypothetically I am presented with a situation like the one above and I am too stupid to follow the direction of the police I will always reach for the weapon with a light attached. That doesn’t mean that I don’t put the mag light in my pocket, what it means is if the situation has me concerned enough to draw my weapon in a darkened environment I want a light on said weapon. Not to mention there are numerous disadvantages to malfunction clearing if you are only using one hand.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    4th November 2005
    Location
    Northern California
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMorr
    ...I think the advantages of a weapon mounted light greatly outweigh their undesirable characteristics such as pointing your weapon at something you do not want to destroy. Allow me to paint a hypothetical picture using words...
    A major problem with hypothetical scenarios is that it is easy to create a hypothetical that will favor one technique or one skill set or one type of equipment. But if a hypothetical is not fairly representative of the type of situation one is likely to encounter in real life, it's pretty useless.

    If we could know that we would be facing only one particular, well defined problem, we would have the luxury of being able to choose our equipment, training and techniques to be optimal for that particular problem. But that is not the case for us. We don't know what our problem will be, so we must choose training, techniques and equipment reasonably suitable for a wide range of possible problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMorr
    ...You come home from a long day of work and it is pitch black outside, as you approach your front door you notice that it has been kicked in and is laying in splinters on the ground in front of you. The interior of your house has been trashed, none of the lights are working and worse yet you can hear something rummaging through the debris. Upon calling the police they tell you that they are extremely busy for whatever reason and it may be as much as 15 minutes before they can have a unit to your location, they recommend that you do not enter the residence but seek shelter at a neighbor’s house until they arrive and assess the situation. But you remember that you left your 50lbs of gold bullion sitting on your desk (Very Hypothetical at this point) and are not willing to wait for the police....
    And that, of course, is a serious mistake. One might be forced to enter if he had good reason to believe a loved one might be there, but considering that going looking for a possible adversary puts you at a severe tactical disadvantage, it's a very bad choice to take the risk for property.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMorr
    ...So the question is once your make your way to your gun safe do you grab your Mag Light and pistol with no light or do you grab for the pistol with a weapon light...
    And why would you even consider entering if you weren't already armed?

    Quote Originally Posted by EMorr
    ...If you grab for your pistol and the flash light because you are worried about pointing your weapon at something you are not willing to destroy, you have to admit that when you are clearing your house you main focus will be on the area illuminated by the flashlight and you will trying to keep your weapon in your peripheral vision or possibly in a close retention hold....
    You're doing it wrong. We learned at Gunsite how to do it correctly with a separate flashlight. Get yourself some proper training, and you could learn how to do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMorr
    ...there are numerous disadvantages to malfunction clearing if you are only using one hand....
    That's why it's a good idea to have a lanyard on your flashlight.

    In any case, there are a number of reasons why I've concentrated my training on proper use of a separate flashlight. First, I always have at least a small Surefire on my person.

    Second, although I can't legally carry a gun around where I live, and can and do legally carry a concealed gun in Arizona and Nevada and a number of other States. But carrying a concealed gun with a mounted light is something of a trick. So if I need my gun and a light, I will almost always have to use a separate flashlight. Therefore, I better learn how to manage it properly. So I've trained that way.

    DVC
    adapt, improvise, overcome
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
    "One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

  7. #17
    Join Date
    10th September 2011
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    Colorado
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    Frank,

    I think you took my hypothetical scenario a little too seriously I tried to write it in a way that it would seem outlandish but I guess I did not do a good enough job of that maybe next I should say 500 pounds of gold on the desk. Also the whole idea was to give an option to the reader to choose either a weapon with or without light as I don’t know many people that both types of weapons and a spare flash light unless it’s part of their uniform. The dog could have just as easily have been a loved one but I would hope that nobodies loved ones would enter a house in such a state and because hypothetical scenarios cause so many problems I did not want to suggest a hostage situation. I wanted to give people the option of which combination they felt most comfortable with and them lead them through a senario the ending of which is up to the person reading. After the story was over I stated my reasoning for wanting a weapon mounted light but I dont think the story had a bias one way or the other.

    In the end my point was if you already have your weapon out and for whatever reason and are clearing an area there are few disadvantages to having a light on said weapon. I truly believe that there is a distinct advantage to focusing on one object in your hands as opposed to focusing on two separate objects that have to be manipulated individually. Sadly I do not have the money to go to big name firearms training courses; until I do I will have to rely on the training I receive through my job. I think for the average gun owner cutting back on the items they need to keep track of in a stressful situation will be beneficial, if someone has the training and is more comfortable with the separate light more power to them. One thing I have learned from talking to friends and instructors that have attended those courses is that the tactics are almost always changing and being replaced by the newer and better tactics. In the end people should pick what they are most comfortable with, if that is a separate light then that is an excellent choice, if it is a weapon mounted light that is also an excellent choice. The biggest drawback to a weapon mounted light is that it entices the user to the use it as a light and that is a mistake. A Weapon mounted light should never be used in a situation where only a light is needed!
    Last edited by EMorr; 23rd September 2011 at 04:02.


  8. #18
    Join Date
    30th March 2008
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    Late to the party I know, but I happen to have a weapon mounted light as well as a separate one.

    For exactly the reasons Frank makes earlier in this topic. I might not always have my other hand to hold a light in it, same way I might not be able to have a two handed grip on my wepon. I do want to be able to light up what I need to in that situation.

    I carry a weapon mounted light which will allow me to illuminate something before I perforate it. This is always a good thing IMHO. You might just be pointing your gun at something you are not willing to destroy, but with a light on it you can identify it before destroying it. You might not always have the time to get to your separate light....

    I carry an upgraded Surefire either in my pocket or on my belt, the G2 LED or the E2-D LED. Both are good lights for a fight and both work well with various techniques. They also make pointing a light and not a gun/light combo at something easier. It depends if I'm going "minimalist" - E-2 in pocket or "heavy" - G2 on belt.

    I also tend to carry yet another light. There are a couple of different lights that fit this category, mostly my E-1 Backup or the Streamlight PT1-L. Both are absolutely minute lights wich can be used in a pinch as a combat light but they are so I don't have to blast out 200+ lumens of light when I'm looking for a dropped set of keys or finding a path somewhere. I'll admit this is maily done when I'm carrying the G2 as the E-1/PT1-L rides in the pocket where the E-2 normally sits. The G2 also runs at over 250 OTF lumens and is a little bright for normal use.

    Some may say 3 is overkill, and I tend to agree with them. I must admit though that carrying a separate light allows you to use it in more mundane places than defending your life. I strongly suggest anyone who does rely on a weapon mounted light gets a small pocket light as well. For something that can do double duty as a normal use light and a combat light if needed, the Streamlight PT2-L is a good compromise. Light weight, compact and running a Cree C-4 LED over two CR123 batteries means it is nice and bright.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    2nd April 2008
    Location
    Arizona
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    First,

    you need to learn how to use a weapon mounted light. It does not require you to point the center of the beam at the target - if you have ever walked into a room with a flashlight, or IDK if you were ever a kid - try pointing you light at the walls and ceiling but not looking at the focused part of the beam. You can still see pretty well.

    You (op) original question has some assumptions in it that are false. No tool is doing you any good without (good/competent) training and practice.

    I do agree with the posts about shooting with the offhand and onehanded ^^
    Words can be as lethal as bullets; Choose them carefully, Aim them well and use them sparingly.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    21st November 2007
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    I did not read all the comments so this reply is specifically to the original question only. Weapons mounted lights certainly have their place in todays operational community. It adds one more thing the end user needs to be tuned in with and cognizant of. It has its place and can be used safely. You could write pages and pages of why and how it can be used safely and effectively. Holding someone at guard, you can activate the light if need be in that specific scenario and the wide beam spread can still effectively light up where you need (depending on distance and other factors). It can be and is used safely in room clearing and other scenarios, it just really requires the end user to be dialed in and not covering his partners or others. If you need light where you feel inappropriate for your muzzle to be near, you can kill the weapons light and run a flashlight and transition back and forth....

    It also has its place as a home defense tool. I am not saying it is the best, or the end all be all, but think of having to scoop up one of your kids and getting out of the house, it may be nice having a weapons mounted light and gun in one hand and the kid in the other instead of trying to have a light, gun, and kid... you get the idea...

    BOTTOM LINE IS IT'S A TOOL TO ADD TO YOUR TOOL BOX

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