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Thread: Qualification

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  1. #1
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    Qualification

    I'm a retired Deputy Sheriff with 34 years service. I spent the last 12 years as a plainclothes officer in the Criminal Division and had a take home car. At the time, I carried an issue S&W 5906 as my duty weapon. Now that I'm retired, my daily carry is usually a 1911, either a Colt Combat Commander or a Colt New Agent.

    What gets me ticked off is civilians that seem to think that LEOs qualify by standing in one place and putting a few rounds in a stationary target from a short range. I'm not sure about other LEOs in these forums, but qualifications in my Office were certainly tougher than that. They involved running, kneeling, barricade shooting, and moving targets. We also trained in a darkened situation house with Simunition, and from actual Cruisers, in quick response and ambush scenarios. We also trained regularly in boxing, hand to hand combat and baton use.

    All of that to protect the very persons who hold us in such low esteem!
    Oh well, I wouldn't give up those years for anything. No other job can match it!
    Unkei
    "Life is a school. Study hard. The final exam is comprehensive and counts for 100 percent of your final grade."

    Unkei

  2. #2
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    I live an a small suburb north of Detroit and the police in my town's qualification is easier than you mention... But since yours sounds more in depth (which would comfort me as a civie in your city), maybe next time you hear someone say that you should offer to run them through your qualification and see if that doesn't make them have a little more respect.. Sometimes that's the only way to shut people up who "know it all"...

  3. #3
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    Unkei, I am also a retired LEO. While there are many who don't like LEO's, there are many more that appreciate us.

    My Mom use to say, "Don't worry about what people think of you, it's what you think of yourself that matters."

    Best of Luck!
    Rich
    Certified NRA Instructor Pistol & Shotgun
    ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
    "There Is No Greater High Than Defeating Armed Felons" Rich-D

  4. #4
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    Unfortunately I think the problem lies within the LEO community (specifically upper level management) In today's world, the LE community doesn't want individuals who are gun enthusiasts or who put a priority on hand to hand combat training. These types are seen as too "aggressive" "risky" and "militaristic". It sounds terrible to say this, but I think a large number of higher ups in Law enforcement would rather see a dangerous criminal escape apprehension than have to deal with the paper work and legal hassles involved in a shooting or forceful takedown that results in injury. Also, rather than hiring the best people for the job, law enforcement (like most government jobs) has become a "workfare" social experimentation process where less than qualified people are hired to fill quotas. This fulfills the political goal of ensuring that everyone has the "ability" to become a cop if they want to. Needless to say, many of these people could never pass a firearms course like the one you described. These are just my own observations.
    Last edited by cacoltguy; 7th April 2011 at 04:24.


  5. #5
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    cacoltguy, In my experience, most upper level management parrot what the politicians desire. I commanded the Major Crimes Unit in what many consider the most dangerous city in America, Camden NJ. It was also one of the most politically corrupt in America. The Mayor was caught in an FBI Sting called ABSCAM.

    However, in spite of the political nature of most upper management positions, I have never experienced one that as you state "would rather see a dangerous criminal escape apprehension than have to deal with the paper work and legal hassles involved in a shooting or forceful takedown that results in injury."

    Upper management does not do the paperwork in an arrest or shooting. With very few exceptions, they are not on scene to instruct Officers to shoot or not shoot. Nor are they on scene when a criminal is forcefully taken down.
    Certified NRA Instructor Pistol & Shotgun
    ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
    "There Is No Greater High Than Defeating Armed Felons" Rich-D

  6. #6
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    28th December 2006
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    Welcome Unkie

    I'm not a cop, but have family and close friends in the the biz.
    I also shoot with several active and retired LEO's too.

    I think "maybe" the perception of qualifications might be from a person's knowledge of one dept compared to another.

    I know they're not "all" created equal and some require higher qualification standards than others.

    example; I know the qual standards are much higher for an Ohio State Trooper than a tiny village with a "less than" top tier pool of candidates to choose from


    and since I'm feeling ornery this morning
    (in a fun kidding "ornery" kind of way)
    Let me turn this one around


    What gets me ticked off is civilians that seem to think that LEOs qualify by standing in one place and putting a few rounds in a stationary target
    what tics me off* are civilians that think LEO's know anything about guns "just" because they carry one...

    *It doesn't really tic me off, just that I know that many LEO's don't generally know a whole lot about guns..."in general"...



    ..L.T.A.

  7. #7
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    Quailfication +

    Yes..I agree with most of these posts. I didn't mean to complain (ok, maybe a little), just know that most civilians don't know what goes into the training (ongoing) involved in maintaining a quality law enforcement organization. A good friend of mine served on a Nuke, a boomer to be exact. Every time I explained qualifications and training he was incredulous. He had qualified with the sidearm, but it was not even loosely comparable to the training and qualifications that I experienced on a year round basis. He also along with his mates, carried weapons that were not loaded and could not be without authorization. While I appreciate his service and that of all our servicemen, it just isn't the same as what the LEO does on a daily basis.
    These servicemen and women put their lives on the line for us all, but unless in time of war, it's much different. Our armed forces operate under a strict set of rules of engagement. The LEO, on the other hand, must be prepared to make life and death decisions on a daily basis. These decisions made in fractions of seconds, can determine whether the LEO survives, whether he protects civilians effectively, and whether his family will see him that night or ever again. And, he will surely face possible prosecution for a bad decision, as well as the possible loss of all he and his family own. OK...I'll step off the pulpit now! Thanks for all the input.
    Unkei
    "Life is a school. Study hard. The final exam is comprehensive and counts for 100 percent of your final grade."

    Unkei

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap
    Welcome Unkie

    I'm not a cop, but have family and close friends in the the biz.
    I also shoot with several active and retired LEO's too.

    I think "maybe" the perception of qualifications might be from a person's knowledge of one dept compared to another.

    I know they're not "all" created equal and some require higher qualification standards than others.

    example; I know the qual standards are much higher for an Ohio State Trooper than a tiny village with a "less than" top tier pool of candidates to choose from


    and since I'm feeling ornery this morning
    (in a fun kidding "ornery" kind of way)
    Let me turn this one around




    what tics me off* are civilians that think LEO's know anything about guns "just" because they carry one...

    *It doesn't really tic me off, just that I know that many LEO's don't generally know a whole lot about guns..."in general"...



    ..L.T.A.
    Hey Cap,
    I get you! But most (admittedly not all) LEOs have moe than a passing interest in guns. After all, if you ccw as a civilian, you just might need that gun. If you are LEO, it usually becomes more than a what if situation. I can only speak personally of course, and not for all, or even most LEOs, but I have many handguns, and have tried to master all of them. They include 22 short, 22ZlR, 22 mag, 25, 32, 380, 38(all varieties), 9mm, 45LC, 45ACP, and 410/45 LC. I will admit that I am not a master of all. On the other hand, I train regularly with all but the 22s. In my 34 years of service, I've learned that you can never train too much, never take anything for granted, and above all, there is no such thing as a routine traffic stop, or routine domestic call. Every situation is different, fluid, and frightening, in a way that civilians only think about in nightmares.
    Unkei
    "Life is a school. Study hard. The final exam is comprehensive and counts for 100 percent of your final grade."

    Unkei

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-D

    Upper management does not do the paperwork in an arrest or shooting. With very few exceptions, they are not on scene to instruct Officers to shoot or not shoot. Nor are they on scene when a criminal is forcefully taken down.
    Rich D, I'm not sure who you refer to as management in your line of work. I understand that the term may be different depending on who you work for, but in my line of work, supervisors and above are most certainly required to do quite a bit of paper-work involving any shooting incident or the use of less than lethal force. Obviously they are not there on the scene to instruct an officer on what to do. What I am saying is that in my experience, the are a decent number of people in management (not the majority however) who are not too fond of officers who take a proactive approach and may be more likely to force the supervisor to do more work. These types like things to be as low key as possible and don't want anything done that might ruffle some feathers. For numerous reasons, many of these types of people in management seem to move up the ladder rather quickly and end up in positions that involve the writing of policy. Getting back to the concept of the original post, creating a policy that calls for rigorous shooting qualifications is not something that these types are fond of.
    Last edited by cacoltguy; 7th April 2011 at 16:44.


  10. #10
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    Paperwork

    Hey Rich,
    Unfortunately, I think in our Office, it was those same management that did mandate the rigorous training and qualifications. However, it was my opinion, along with many other veteran officers, that they did it precisely for the purpose of Reducing paperwork. Though our training was good and ongoing, we believed that those in management did as they did in order to avoid civil liability and cover their a.... It was not done out of any desire to protect the officer.
    Unkei
    "Life is a school. Study hard. The final exam is comprehensive and counts for 100 percent of your final grade."

    Unkei

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