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Thread: Firefox and software developers

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  1. #1
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    Firefox and software developers

    Many-many years ago, I learned about inertia. It's a well-known property of matter, but also it describes very well the fact that human beings do not like changing their habits. At least most of them do not.

    I am now almost 54 years old. I've been working with computers since I was 28, so I can say that I have some experience on these matters. I have done my share of coding all those years, developing programs on a variety of platforms (computers), using several different programming languages.

    One thing that puzzles me all the times, is how software developers ignore user preferences and user habits. What I'll describe below, is something that happens all the times to me, and thankfully, I always manage to find a solution, but still it never ceases to amaze me how little respect developers have for their users.

    Here is the subject of my rant.

    This morning, I downloaded and installed the latest version if Firefox browser. I can no longer remember when I first started using Firefox, but I do know it was several years ago, when Netscape folded. I've always prefered Firefox to Internet Explorer (or Exploder, as it should be named), due to its tighter security. So you can say, I am used to Firefox.

    As soon as I downloaded the new version though, I got hit by a bomb. TABS! Some years before, browser developers decided that instead of having multiple browser windows open, they should allow us to have multiple "tabs" within the same browser window. I have never managed to get used to this feature (or problem?) so the first thing I do when I download a new browser version, is to make sure that tabs are as disabled as possible.

    Until Version 3.xx, Firefox allowed you to do this (disable tab browsing) and so does the latest version 4. However, some of their developers thought that some of the menus should be rearranged, just because tabs are so hot. So instead of having "Open link in new window" selection, as the first selection of the context menu, which pops-up when you right-click on a link (something I do a lot) they moved that option to the second position and added a "Open link in a new tab" option in the first!!!! So when I did what I used to do for years (open a link in a new window) I ended up with the link being opened in a new tab. Did I say I hate tabs?

    The File menu was also changed in a similar manner, the "New Window" option is now second, while "New Tab" is first!!! WHY????

    Mozilla programmers, why do you believe it is a nice thing to change what we are used to, for so many years? Who on earth told you that I want to spend a couple of hours, trying to figure out how I can get back to my usual way of browsing? God I hate these things, I hate having to spend time for nothing. I hate when a program stops working as it used to be.

    Hear me developers: inertia is a human beings characteristic too. Don't change the user interface to something you think we like (or we need), even if your marketing department tells you so. Let us decide if we want to change. Let us make that decision. Imagine what would happened if a car manufacturer was to switch the accelerator and break pedals positions? Stop doing this in your programs, we do not need more aggrevation.

    P.S.: Thank God there are some intelligent developers out there. After a few Google searches, I found a Firefox add-on, that allows you to customize the menus, in whichever way you like! It's called "Menu Editor" and you can download it from here: http://menueditor.mozdev.org/

    Thanks guys! You made my day.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  2. #2
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    Wow... while I have automatic updates enabled, I'm writing this through Firefox 3.6.15... I guess I'll have to deal with this as soon as I shut down and start up again.

    You don't need to feel... old, John. I'm younger than you, but I have had Google Chrome installed in this PC for a while now. In general, I like it - it's simple, which is usually a good thing. But I don't use it much, because the menu has the tabs option first!!!

    Having said that, I like tabs. Perhaps they don't make sense in an Apple, but I like them in WinXP. I occasionally open a dozen browser tabs at a time. Had I been opening separate windows, the windows of other programs in my taskbar would slowly disappear - or not, because Windows eventually groups multiple similar taskbar items, to keep this from happening. Which is useless, because I then have to go around this, to access the firefox windows that I want. Using tabs means that this issue is history.

    Still, I couldn't get used to one type of menu in Firefox and another menu in Chrome, but after this change, they will be similar... so the irony is, the change in Firefox 4, will make me, a tabs' fan, use Google Chrome more!

    Bravo Firefox!
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  3. #3
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    Sounds like a PEBCAK error in using the menus instead of keyboard shortcuts.

    If you insist upon using the menus:
    1) Download the source
    2) Edit the source so the menu is in the correct order
    3) Recompile and install.

    It's just not that hard!
    Last edited by 230therapy; 23rd March 2011 at 13:47.


  4. #4
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    Rant received and understood.

    I feel the same way about Microsoft Orifice and the completely new menu system that was introduced in the 2007 (or was it the 2010?) version. People have been using the same menu system/structure for more than 20 years. There are, literally, millions of people in the installed user base who have been doing the same tasks the same way for so long that the menu functions have become automatic motions.

    So, naturally, Microsoft tossed ALL that out the window, forcing businesses to invest time (which is money to a business) and money in sending people to classes to re-learn how to do what they've been doing perfectly well for years.

    DUMB!

    I didn't even like the "upgrade" from Firefox 2.xx to 3.xx. The drop-down history bar in the new version (what does Firefox call it, the "Wonder Bar" or something equally idiotic?) is too cluttered and busy, so I had to find an add-in called "Old Bar" to keep it looking like the old version. The fact that Mozilla's myriad developers didn't offer that option internally is shameful.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  5. #5
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    Hawk, I feel your pain! LoRL

    Quote Originally Posted by 230therapy
    Sounds like a PEBCAK error in using the menus instead of keyboard shortcuts.
    What's ... PEBCAK??

    Quote Originally Posted by 230therapy
    If you insist upon using the menus:
    Keyboard shortcuts? You mean there are more than Cmd-C, Cmd-X and Cmd-V?

    Sorry man, I hate keyboard shortcuts, you can only remember so many.

    Quote Originally Posted by 230therapy
    1) Download the source
    2) Edit the source so the menu is in the correct order
    3) Recompile and install.
    No need to. The menu structure is NOT internal to the code, it's somewhere external, I do not know where, and I do not care, after I found Menu Edit. It does it for me.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org
    Last edited by John; 23rd March 2011 at 14:37.


  6. #6
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    Hi John,

    Coincidentally, I work for Mozilla.

    We have somewhere around 400,000,000 users across 86 languages. We use very extensive analytics to find out how people use their browser, and a fantastic user experience team who try to improve the front end of Firefox to make it easier for people to use. We absolutely do not ignore user preferences or the way people operate — and we have a huge pile of statistics and Test Pilot studies to back that up. Nothing is changed for the sake of things.

    Sometimes the data points to keeping things the same, and sometimes it means changing things… especially because there are parts of Firefox that date back 15+ years, and simply no longer make sense to people. New users and experienced users have different needs, and we need to balance those.

    For every John who gets tripped up by a change in menu order, there's a user who doesn't discover a useful feature because it's not front-and-center for them to find.

    As you discovered, Firefox's customizability and support for extensions is a great way to reach a middle ground by allowing you to change parts of the browser.

    I'll look and see if there's an open bug to hide the Open in New Tab menu option when tabbed browsing is disabled. If not, I'll file one.

    You might be interested to know that you can Ctrl-click (on Windows) or Cmd-click (on Mac) on a link to open it in a new window or tab, depending on your preferences, and Ctrl/Cmd-N will open a new window from anywhere in Firefox. You should never need to reach for the menu to perform that action.

    Do let me know if you have any questions, and I'll do my best to help!


    "PEBKAC", by the way, means "problem exists between keyboard and chair". It's a derogatory/joking term for "user error".

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgr
    Nothing is changed for the sake of things.
    I'm sure you believe this, but we end users do not.

    New users and experienced users have different needs, and we need to balance those.
    So naturally, it makes sense to abandon the installed user base in favor of the new users, who could just as easily learn the existing menu/command structure as learn a new and different one.

    I'm sure that must make sense to you or you wouldn't do it, but it makes zero sense in the real world.

    For every John who gets tripped up by a change in menu order, there's a user who doesn't discover a useful feature because it's not front-and-center for them to find.
    Why should people who already know how to use a program (any program) be forced to enter a new learning curve in order to accomodate some new user who doesn't accidentally "discover" some new feature he/she doesn't need and will never use?
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
    I'm sure you believe this, but we end users do not.
    I think you can only speak for yourself in that regard. We went through twelve beta releases, two release candidates, and a huge amount of feedback from an enormous community prior to releasing Firefox 4. That feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.

    We don't do anything without measuring. For example, here are some results from studies done last year:

    http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2010...-study-part-i/

    http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2010...visualization/

    You can see from that first link that New Tab in the main menu gets clicked about 30 times as often as New Window. New Window is at number 21 in the list — it's used less often than Quit!

    In every change there will be people who are unhappy. We try to keep that number as small as possible, and we make an educated decision to trade off the cost of a change versus the potential benefit.

    Taking tabs as an example: the majority of people use tabs. Should we make life harder for, say, three hundred and ninety five million people, just to avoid making five million people possibly adjust to new ways of doing things?

    Even my 65-year-old mother uses tabs!


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
    So naturally, it makes sense to abandon the installed user base in favor of the new users, who could just as easily learn the existing menu/command structure as learn a new and different one.
    You might be surprised at the enormous amount of effort we go to to avoid disrupting or breaking things for our users. We love our users, and we do our best to make them happy. We are, after all, a non-profit: we exist only to make the web better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
    Why should people who already know how to use a program (any program) be forced to enter a new learning curve in order to accomodate some new user who doesn't accidentally "discover" some new feature he/she doesn't need and will never use?
    Because:

    * The new learning curve is short
    * Millions upon millions of people's lives will benefit in some small way by the change
    * Far fewer people than you think are disrupted by having to adapt to a change in this way, and statistics and user studies back up that decision
    * Sometimes making a change is necessary to allow for future growth.

    After all, tabbed browsing was new once upon a time… and now it's the way almost everyone browses the web. Most people adapted quickly. Some people are left behind, and we do our best to help bring those people along, or support them in the old way of doing things, but we can't keep putting the ignition on the front of the car just because that's where the hand crank used to be.

    Change is a part of life. You might find it uncomfortable, but — just like a thumbs-forward grip, or red-dot sights — it might be worth your while to give it a try.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgr
    "PEBKAC", by the way, means "problem exists between keyboard and chair". It's a derogatory/joking term for "user error".
    Ahhhhhh......

    As for the rest of your comments, I believe that Hawkmoon said it exactly as I would have. Caring for those 400,000,000 existing users is more important (or at least it should be more important) than the new users who will have to learn FF environment from scratch.

    May I humbly suggest to your developers that they add an option "Disable Tabs Completely", for those old-timers who hate tabs? If that option is selected in the Preferences, then the Open in a New Tab and the File/New Tab options should completely disappear from the user interface, along every other reference to tabs.

    Two more points:

    - Whatever happened to the "Stop" (X) and "Reload" buttons in the Navigation toolbar? I've managed to find the Reload button, but the Stop button, while I move it to the left of the address space, it doesn't appear. I assume it will appear only while a page is loading? Again, another case of altering the user interface, again, not to an improved layout.

    - The No-Script menu button is now moved to the navigation bar, at the top. Again, I have to ask, why? It was fine where it was before, why was it moved??

    I have also noticed that there are some serious bugs in FF4. Here are some that I've noticed:

    - While typing my answer in the Quick Reply box at the bottom of this page, for some strange reason, a part of the pictures shown in the left column (the M1911.ORG logo at the top and then the Rock Island Armory banner) are copied and appear in the Quick Reply box. They do not appear permanently, but they flash on and off, a small part of the image. It some times appears when the line fills up and text moves down to the next line, some times if you press Enter at the last line, and some times when you move the cursor key to the last line. I tried to capture it, doing a screen capture.



    Look in the Quick Reply box, in the above image, and you will see that on the last line, there is a part of the RIA banner shown. Some times that same small part of the images, appear higher up in the text I've already typed, but I haven't manage to figure out when this happens. The image part, flashes three times and then vanishes.

    - I noticed another problem, when I right-click to open the "Back-Forward-Reload-Stop-etc" menu. The first time you do that in a page, the menu appears for a very brief instant bigger (as if it contains more options) and larger in size. It stays on for a few milliseconds and then it is replaced by the standard menu. I noticed that problem first in another site but then I see it happening in this one too. Both of these sites (ours and the other one) are using vBulletin software, but neither of these two bugs occured with the previous versions, in either site. So it has to be something in the new version that causes these.

    hgr, don't misunderstand me. I appreciate you jumping in here to help us out with FF4. As far as I am concerned, it was my favorite browser when I was using Windoze and it is still my favorite one, for security reasons and because (you guessed it) I am too old a dog to learn new tricks (like Chrome or even Safari). But if you guys are going to keep changing things in the user interface, I seriously doubt I'll be downloading any newer versions.

    By the way, is there any place from where I can download the last 3.xx version? I'd rather use that, until you guys have iron out the infancy bugs from FF4.

    Again, thanks for your jumping in here.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org
    Last edited by John; 23rd March 2011 at 16:43.


  10. #10
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    Apparently we have cross-posted.

    Let me tell you something I learned from close to 30 years of experience in systems development. It's always bad to change the user interface. Some years ago, I had translated a huge package called Wang Office (an office automation package, with email, calendar, address book, word processing etc, all in one integrated environment) from English to Greek. That was a requirement from a high-rank Government official, in order for them to buy the package for the office of the Prime Minister. Me and my team were working on the object code, there were no sources to work with, no external messages, no resource files etc to play with. We did all changes in the object code.

    We were working more than 18 hours a day and we finished the translation in less than a month, which got us the job and a nice bonus for me and my team. After we installed the package and did the training and everything, we took a well-deserved two-weeks vacation.

    When we got back, we checked the statistics in the log files. We noticed that people were using every other part of the program, except one. According to the mother company, that should have been the one users used more, in every installation of the software around the world. In our installation, it hasn't even been accessed once. The users have been trained on its functionality, the program was running fine, but nobody used it. So as the project manager I took it upon myself to find out why.

    After talking with the customer personnel, I was astonished to hear their reason. In the English version of the program, the menu selection for that program was a four-letter word, which described perfectly the function of that program. Let's say for example "Calc", for calculator. The Greek word for Calc though is much larger than four letters, so we had to invent an abbreviation. It was apparent that the 4-letter abbreviation we selected didn't exactly conveyed the message to the end users, who haven't even tried that menu option once, in two weeks.

    So yes, I understand that a software has to evolve, and it has to grow and have more features. Do add features, but let the users select if they want to use them. And whatever you do, use your existing customers as a guide, not what market research tell you, not what the marketing says. Old-timers have enough time on the software to tell you what they love or hate. New-comers can't do that.

    As for tabs etc, I do not know if it was the browser industry who started this issue, or if it was a users request, what I do know is that you should give your users the option to select if they want tabs or not. Apparently, it is a feature that deserves its own submenu in the program's preference. If it is so important, to have four or five different options there, well, give us the option to disable it if we so want. And since FF is so customizable, come up with a tool that allows us to customize our toolbars etc, exactly as we want them. It shouldn't cost you much.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org
    Last edited by John; 23rd March 2011 at 17:10.


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