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Thread: Do you "top off" your carry gun?

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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    I saw a member of another forum say this on the subject:
    Depending on the gun, topping off the magazine after chambering can cause problems in three areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    The first is a "second round jam". Pressure from the top round of the fully loaded magazine can produce enough drag that the slide does not cycle all the way and fails to pick up the next round, or doesn't have enough "oomph" to chamber the round. I've seen this happen a number of times on the range.
    If the gun is set up properly, and the magazines are in good condition, this will not happen. I haven't seen it yet in any of my 1911's.


    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    The second failure mode is a "last round failure to feed". In this failure, excessive pressure on the magazine spring damages it, leaving it to weak to lift the last round in line with the slide. You are left with the slide forward on an empty chamber, and one round in the mag.
    This can happen with weak springs. I keep a good watch on my springs. When they take a 'set', meaning look shorter than compared to the others, they get replaced. But then I clean my magazines every time my gun(s) get cleaned.

    My duty gun/magazines are loaded 24/7 for months on end, and have yet to have a problem


    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    The third failure mode concerns the magazine catch. Pressure from the topped up magazine will cause wear to the mag catch, and can cause the mag to pop out. I've seen this on the range as well.

    Personally me thinks all but the spring concern is garbage. Too many internet commandos causing much ado about nothing.

    I don't know of any LE types that don't carry fully loaded magazines in their 1911's.
    If it isn't durable, it isn't reliable.

  2. #12
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    I've been told to never top off a double stacked magazine and to never fill a double stack mag to capacity and the reason was exactly what was put forward by the OP. I always top off my single stack 1911 with no problems

  3. #13
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    I've always topped off my double stack mags as well, with 'nary a problem.

    Where is all this garbage coming from? My guess is from junk guns/magazine owners, which I feel sorry for.
    If it isn't durable, it isn't reliable.

  4. #14
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    Never

    I never top off my gun, but my rationale follows:

    Although I keep my gun in a gun vault safe, I still want to be extra careful with kids in the house. If they somehow finagled my safe open, neither is strong enough to rack a slide so it gives me some added measure of security as to them.

    I understand some people's need to have immediate access to a loaded gun, especially when there are no children around, but I feel better knowing that I'm not making it any easier for them to find trouble.

    Just my position.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack852
    I never top off my gun, but my rationale follows:

    Although I keep my gun in a gun vault safe, I still want to be extra careful with kids in the house. If they somehow finagled my safe open, neither is strong enough to rack a slide so it gives me some added measure of security as to them.

    I understand some people's need to have immediate access to a loaded gun, especially when there are no children around, but I feel better knowing that I'm not making it any easier for them to find trouble.

    Just my position.
    How old are your kids? Mine are still pretty young and are unable to reach my loaded weapon. Plus they are not allowed in my room for an additional measure of safety. I will need to find another way when they start to grow some but until then I don't leave a gun anywhere close to being within their reach.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wichaka
    Where is all this garbage coming from? My guess is from junk guns/magazine owners, which I feel sorry for.
    Many people I know seem to believe similar things. Even the army here did something similar on their 20-round HK-G3 magazines (loading only 18 rounds in them).

    Everyone I know in my range advised against loading my Para P18-9 mags fully, suggesting that I load 'only' 17 rounds in them. I left them loaded with 18 rounds for a couple of weeks, without any ill-effects. They have taken an initial set, which is noticeable because they are a little easier to load now, but work fine to slide lock. I magaged to damage one of them, by dropping it (and possibly stepping on it ) at the range, causing the follower to stop just short of the slide stop's ledge. As a result, the gun will not lock back with this magazine, until I get it fixed, but even in this condition (i.e. with very little vertical pressure from the magazine spring), the last round is fed to the chamber just fine.
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  7. #17
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    Even with the newer springs in my AR magazines, I can keep 30 rounds in them and carry them that way for months on end, and they still give no trouble.
    If it isn't durable, it isn't reliable.

  8. #18
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    back in the day many never topped off a Browning High Power 9mm with the 13th round. this was a real issue, and not from the Israeli's training to carry without a round in the chamber...

    but I have never had a problem topping off any of my pistols.
    Beretta, Sig, 1911, High Powers...

    if this only happened once I would consider it a fluke.
    if properly trained in clearance drills, one time would not be enough to make me carry less than a fully loaded pistol.

    now, if it occurred on a regular basis, with different magazines I'm with garrett.
    the problem lies elsewhere.
    cold on ice it's a Deadman's touch...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    I've read that the extra round causes extra drag on the slide as it cycles, therefore slowing it down and potentially causing problems. Seems logical.
    Not really. If you think about it, you have 7 rounds in a 7 round magazine. If it caused drag on the second round, it would have caused similar drag on the first. 7 is still 7.


    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    The problem I encountered was a with a friends Kimber pro carry.
    This adds another variable to the equation. It is a short barrel gun (shorter than 5"), bull barrel (again non standard), and a newer Kimber. Kimber has a reputation for finicky feeding. Particularly in their newer guns. Their customer service spiel "run it a few hundred rounds to break it in" is becoming legendary.

    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    It just didn't strip the second round of the magazine.
    OK, let's get some clarity here on what exactly is happening. Did the slide make it far enough back to engage the case rim? Did the round move forward any in the magazine? Was the case rim in contact with the breech face? Did it get under the extractor? Did the nose of the bullet contact the frame ramp? If so where?

    Methinks there is more going on here than we have info for. Does the gun still have the stock recoil spring? Does the shooter hold the gun with "high thumbs"? Could the slide be dragging on the shooter's thumb(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    It was a standard 7 round mag that came with the gun. And it was a nearly new gun.
    Doesn't matter. Magazines are made by a third party contractor, and bad batches come out. Try different magazines and see if you can duplicate the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    That only happened once, but I've seen other people say they've encountered similar problems and that they don't carry +1.
    A reference number of one (with incomplete data) does not a trend make. It appears that folks are being too quick to blame a single round in the magazine on what could be any one of dozens of other possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    The first is a "second round jam". Pressure from the top round of the fully loaded magazine can produce enough drag that the slide does not cycle all the way and fails to pick up the next round, or doesn't have enough "oomph" to chamber the round. I've seen this happen a number of times on the range.
    The magazine spring in a 1911 is around 9-11 pounds. The recoil springs are roughly double that. If there's not enough "oomph" to overcome the drag of the magazine then there is a problem elsewhere. There are a couple of detailed explanations of the various feeding problems in the gunsmithing section of the forum. The culprit is likely one (or more) of the problems listed there.

    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    The second failure mode is a "last round failure to feed". In this failure, excessive pressure on the magazine spring damages it, leaving it to weak to lift the last round in line with the slide. You are left with the slide forward on an empty chamber, and one round in the mag.
    As already mentioned, this is due to a weak magazine spring. The spring should be replaced when needed. This has nothing to do with whether or not one tops off.

    Quote Originally Posted by hackman
    The third failure mode concerns the magazine catch. Pressure from the topped up magazine will cause wear to the mag catch, and can cause the mag to pop out. I've seen this on the range as well.
    Again, you are putting seven rounds in a seven round mag. You aren't putting any more stress on the system than the normal design calls for. If the magazine catch wears enough through normal use not to retain the magazine in the well, it was likely thin on specs to begin with. And there should be warning signs long before the catch fails. A top quality one (Wilson, Brown, etc) is around $20. Replace it and move on.
    "The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

  10. #20
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    On 1911's, I have some 7 round mags and 8 rounders. I always top off on the 7 round mags, but when it's an 8 round, I usually don't, as I don't like the way lots of 1911's act when stripping off that 8th round, for carry I only keep 7 rounds in the mag, regardless of magazine and one up the pipe.

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