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Thread: Best Powder for 45 ACP: 4.25 barrel, 185 Golden Saber

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  1. #1
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    Best Powder for 45 ACP: 4.25 barrel, 185 Golden Saber

    (Note: I'm shooting an Ed Brown Carry with a 4.25" barrel.) I've been researching powders for the 185 grain Golden Saber JHP in 45 ACP. My goal is to achieve the factory performance for the Golden Sabers of about 1000 fps at the muzzle (which is for a 5" barrel).

    From what I've learned, I need a faster powder for the low pressure 45 ACP, and a relatively fast powder for the "short" 4.25" barrel. It would seem (from the Accurate Arms Reloading data) that Accurate #5 would be a good choice: 9.6 grains should produce about 1020 fps in a 5" barrel. This is for the Hornady 185 grain XTP JHP.

    A lot of folks use Winchester's 231 powder, but the Hodgdon's Reloading data shows that a max. load gives only 906 fps with a 185 grain bullet.

    Has anyone had experience loading the 185 grain Golden Saber's for 45 ACP?

  2. #2
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    Yes I have, and to tell you truthfully, I don't know what's the "best" powder for a 4.25 inch barrel because several powders will do the same thing. My Ruger P97 has a 4.2 inch barrel, and that's close enough to what you've got, but it isn't saying the velocities have to be identical, as velocities do vary even with identical barrel lengths.

    In addition, the fastest powder in a longer 5 inch barrel will also be the fastest powder in your 4.25 inch barrel. The difference in barrel length from long to short 45 ACP barrels is not enough to make a switch in powder choice necessary because they're all fully consumed and have passed their pressure peak long before the bullet gets anywhere near the end of the barrel.

    If someone's sold you on the idea of a "special" short barrel powder being necessary, you've been misled. Such is not true.

    If you get past the idea that there's a single "best" powder you'll be better off. Rather, there's a number of choices that will work to give you the velocity you need (as long as your expectations are reasonable) and asking for a single choice won't give you "the answer."

    If you like high performance and don't mind some blast, Power Pistol gets good velocities. If you want decent velocities without all the blast, try Unique in 8 to 8.2 grain charges, working up from below. Others powders like Accurate #7 and Universal Clays will work as well.

    Top loads using just a few tenths of a grain under maximum charges at standard (not +P) levels produced a velocity of around 1080-1100 fps for me.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverton
    A lot of folks use Winchester's 231 powder, but the Hodgdon's Reloading data shows that a max. load gives only 906 fps with a 185 grain bullet.
    But is that 185gn bullet a 185gn Golden Saber? And if it's not a Golden Saber, what leads you to believe it'll give you the velocity you want after you work up to that max. load? And do you have (or have access to) a chronograph so you can tell what your velocities are as you work up the load?
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  4. #4
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    I don't have a chronograph. I have not found any direct references to Golden Sabers in Reloading Tables. There are references to the Hornady XTP: for example Accurate Arms lists a start load for Accurate #5 of 9.2 grains (970 fps) and a max. load of 10.2 (1102 fps). I've read posts that suggest using the XTP as a starting point for the GS (which are relatively inexpensive).

    I only mentioned Accurate #5 as an example of a power that is listed in a Reloading Table for a similar bullet (the 185 grain XTP) with velocities comparable to those with factory (Remington) Golden Sabers. The only powder that Hodgdon's list that have a max. load greater than 1000 fps is Longshot. Longshot may not be the best powder for a 4.25" barrel. Hence, my post.
    Last edited by Silverton; 22nd March 2010 at 21:30.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverton
    I have not found any direct references to Golden Sabers in Reloading Tables. There are references to the Hornady XTP:. . .
    Assuming both of those bullets weigh the same, the only way I'd feel comfortable with using the XTP load data for the GS was if I knew the seating depths of both bullets.

    Seating depth is the only dimension that, by itself, will allow you to compare available case volumes and thus pressures. Starting with the recommended starting load may be some comfort, but without a chronograph how will you know when to stop increasing the powder charge?

    Q: Is there NO published load data for the Golden Saber? By anybody?

    Q: Do you know the seating depths for the GS and XTP?
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s
    . . . the only way I'd feel comfortable with using the XTP load data for the GS was if I knew the seating depths of both bullets.
    And that can be found by buying a box of each ammunition type and doing a little sleuthing with the bullet puller & calipers.

    Regards
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 23rd March 2010 at 17:32.


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1944Colt
    In addition, the fastest powder in a longer 5 inch barrel will also be the fastest powder in your 4.25 inch barrel. The difference in barrel length from long to short 45 ACP barrels is not enough to make a switch in powder choice necessary because they're all fully consumed and have passed their pressure peak long before the bullet gets anywhere near the end of the barrel.
    I really REALLY have to disagree with you on this. I can't argue about when they reach the peak pressure, because I have no way of measuring that. But I can tell you on the basis of personal experience that the powder is NOT fully consumed long before the bullet reaches the end of the barrel. If that were true, there would be no muzzle flash ... none at all ... because there would be nothing burning after the bullet exits the barrel.

    More to the point of differences between long and short barrels. In general, I will agree that a 4-1/4" Commander barrel acts more like a 5" Government model barrel than it acts like a 3" Defender barrel. But things do change as barrel length decreases.

    Awhile back I embarked on an experiment to try to quantify the loss of muzzle velocity in short barrel 1911s. I gathered together boxes of half a dozen different ammo types, and I scrounged up four Para-Ordnance pistols. I wanted to stay within one brand in order to try to minimize differences in barrel manufacturing technique. I wanted to test with the only variable being the length. So I brought my own P12.45 (3-1/2" barrel) and P13.45 (4-1/4" barrel), and I borrowed a P14.45 (5" barrel) and a Slim Hawg (3" barrel). Then I set out to shoot two 5-shot strings out of each one with each ammo brand/type to chronograph the velocities.

    Everything went great with the P14 and P13. When I got to the P12 I started to get some error readings on the chronograph. When I got to the Slim Hawg, I got even MORE error readings.

    I was shooting at an indoor range, using the optional infrared light source on a CED Millennium chronograph, with the range's overhead lights turned off. Things should have been pretty constant, but there was a definite problem with the short-barreled pistols. It wasn't batteries -- I was running on an A/C adapter.

    I had the chronograph set at ten feet from the muzzle. After obsessing for more than a few minutes, I finally decided that the only thing it could be was excess burning powder going through the screens and upsetting the chronograph. So I moved it five feet farther out (to fifteen feet), re-ran the tests, and encountered no more error readings. I now always set the chronograph at fifteen feet, and I haven't encountered any more errors in the year-plus since I conducted that experiment.

    So it is clear that the powder is very definitely NOT fully consumed by the time the bullet reaches the end of the barrel, and that a faster powder could indeed have beneficial effects in shorter barrels.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Last edited by Hawkmoon; 23rd March 2010 at 17:53.


  8. #8
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    We're rehashing an old point that has been pretty thoroughly debunked; i.e. the need for fast powders in short barreled pistols to get higher velocities than powders that are slower. This ground has been trod upon by handloaders long before we came on the scene. The issue's been resolved before we got here.

    Hawkmoon, the powder is fully consumed, as in burned beyond its initial recognizable state and transformed into the propelling gasses. The flash comes from the column of gas behind the bullet mixing with the abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere on muzzle exit, not from unburned powder.

    I'll refer you to Barsness's comments on the observation of muzzle flash and powder consumption in Handloader. The phenomenon is pretty well known.

    Handloader (Scoville) also comments that the powder found best for longer barrels is also fastest in short barrels, so I'm not alone in so stating.

    In terms of powder selection and expansion ratio, there's relatively little to distinguish between a 3 or 3.5" barrel and a 5" barrel. One barrel length is really not out of the "powder class" of the other barrel length.

    I'd be happy to hunt down exact quotes and findings.......there really is no such thing as "short barrelled" powders for the automatic pistol. All 45 ACP powders peak when the bullet's only a short distance out of the case. They're all relatively fast, and not one of them is "too slow" for a short barrelled pistol.

    Have you seen the findings wherein the short barreled .357 is still optimized with slow(er) powders? This despite the much slower powder than the 45 ACP and the presence of a barrel/cylinder gap.

    Close chronograph reading are upset by muzzle blast disturbing the atmosphere, as a shockwave emanates from the muzzle. I've often received erroneous supersonic velocity readings from short barreled pistols...my 38 loads couldn't have been as fast as they were. Backing up solved it every time. Unless you've found an abundance of unburned powder grains littering the ground and the chronograph, I'd not believe it was unburned powder triggering the sensor. About the only arms that spew unburned powder are, for example, a 45-70 rifle shooting slower rifle powders at very low pressure.

    Chronographs would have a hard time "seeing" a few powder granules, as the photoelectric sensor's light detection capabilities are not that refined. Many cannot see the passage of a .177 airgun pellet unless it passes right next to the sensor due to its small size and the small amount of difference in the light from the atmosphere when the pellet passes over it. At ten feet, even if powder granules were present, they'd be so widely dispersed that no appreciable shading of the sensor would occur to trigger it.

    Just sayin.'

    This "short barrel optimized with a fast powder" idea really, honestly has been an issue that's over and done with.

  9. #9
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    FWIW, down in the third paragraph from the end of this http://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/1911_barrel_length.html the author mentions the peak pressure in a 45 Auto ball round is reached after the bullet had moved 0.3 inch from its initial rest position. That 0.3 inch puts the base of the bullet right at the casemouth.

    Regards
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  10. #10
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    Just found this on the web: http://www.ehow.com/how_6056843_relo...en-sabers.html

    The information posted at this link seems completely consistent with the loading manuals I have access to.

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