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Thread: Jeff Cooper's four rules of safe gun handling

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  1. #11
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    Definition ... Dangerous: Involving the chance of loss or injury.

    Objects with potential to cause harm are indeed dangerous by definition.

    However, the PROBABILITY of that danger resulting in loss or injury varies depending on the circumstances which the item with danger potential is currently involved with at a given point in time.

    That being said, a gun is in fact, by definition, dangerous. So is a knife. So is your kitchen table in a tornado. So is the big screen TV that could fall over on a child when the dog runs into it.

    Those practicing safety correctly with a gun lower PROBABILITY of the danger which directly effects the odds of something bad happening. However, this does not mean that the item is not dangerous simply because the probability has been lowered. To give specific examples... you can be the safest person in the world with a gun, but if you get a bad round from the factory that got 2 powder charges in it, you may very well lose your hand. Another example, you have 1 in the chamber... the round has an overly sensitive blasting cap. A jet plane breaks the sound barrier overhead causing a sonic boom. The resulting shock wave sets off the faulty primer and the gun fires.

    My point here is you have to think BIGGER than just "people and guns" when you start to define things. By definition of the dictionary itself and the laws of physics, a gun is very much a dangerous object. Though I will fully agree that the probability of danger is dramatically reduced when safety is practiced correctly... I do not agree that being safe negates the object from being dangerous at all. It's simple not true.
    Springfield 1911 .45ACP Mil-Spec Parkerized in Black + Other Arsenal-ish things.
    Last edited by NetXteN; 12th April 2005 at 23:16.


  2. #12
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    Ok NetXTen

    With your analogy, my handgun laying on night stand has the potentail to leap off table and slay the entire family. Yet it requires a person to load, chamber, set safety, handle, point (Aim), release safety (s), actuate trigger, while pointed in harmful way. Mans ability or lack of same to recognize and work with safety issues is what makes the world and people safe or unsafe. You sound just like a Lawyer, spin artist for anti's. I agree with the stance any tool, misused is dangerous, and that normally requires the interference of man. You can "what if" all you want, where does that get us? Your double loaded cartridge didn't make the gun unsafe, just the cartridge which would fail, super sensitive primer didn't require a gun to fail, so the faulty primer would be at fault. The human element is the determining factor in most failures in life.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetXteN
    Definition ... Dangerous: Involving the chance of loss or injury.

    Objects with potential to cause harm are indeed dangerous by definition.

    However, the PROBABILITY of that danger resulting in loss or injury varies depending on the circumstances which the item with danger potential is currently involved with at a given point in time.

    That being said, a gun is in fact, by definition, dangerous. So is a knife. So is your kitchen table in a tornado. So is the big screen TV that could fall over on a child when the dog runs into it.

    Those practicing safety correctly with a gun lower PROBABILITY of the danger which directly effects the odds of something bad happening. However, this does not mean that the item is not dangerous simply because the probability has been lowered. To give specific examples... you can be the safest person in the world with a gun, but if you get a bad round from the factory that got 2 powder charges in it, you may very well lose your hand. Another example, you have 1 in the chamber... the round has an overly sensitive blasting cap. A jet plane breaks the sound barrier overhead causing a sonic boom. The resulting shock wave sets off the faulty primer and the gun fires.

    My point here is you have to think BIGGER than just "people and guns" when you start to define things. By definition of the dictionary itself and the laws of physics, a gun is very much a dangerous object. Though I will fully agree that the probability of danger is dramatically reduced when safety is practiced correctly... I do not agree that being safe negates the object from being dangerous at all. It's simple not true.
    With the exception of radioactive materials, I can not see how can someone characterize an object as dangerous. An object will lay there, without doing anything, until someone decides to use it. From there on, it's upon the user to use it for good or for bad.

    Per se, an object has neither the ability nor the wish to cause anything (good or bad). It's the user's intentions which can alter the state of being of an object, not the object itself.

    Throw an apple on someone's head from high enough, and you'll see what a pain this can cause.

    My 2 Eurocents of common sense.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by John
    With the exception of radioactive materials, I can not see how can someone characterize an object as dangerous. An object will lay there, without doing anything, until someone decides to use it. From there on, it's upon the user to use it for good or for bad.

    Per se, an object has neither the ability nor the wish to cause anything (good or bad). It's the user's intentions which can alter the state of being of an object, not the object itself.

    Throw an apple on someone's head from high enough, and you'll see what a pain this can cause.

    My 2 Eurocents of common sense.
    ... not trying to be a dick or anything, but ...

    ... I can't see how someone can NOT characterize controlled explosions in their bare hand as being dangerous. Call me stupid, but last time I checked gunpowder was classified as an explosive.
    Springfield 1911 .45ACP Mil-Spec Parkerized in Black + Other Arsenal-ish things.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetXteN
    ... not trying to be a dick or anything, but ...

    ... I can't see how someone can NOT characterize controlled explosions in their bare hand as being dangerous. Call me stupid, but last time I checked gunpowder was classified as an explosive.
    You are right, but you are assuming that someone picked up the firearm and started firing. Can a pistol by itself cause controlled explosions in your hand? No. Can it cause anything else? No. It's the user who picks it up, who is actually starting a sequence of events, which can be dangerous or not. The same thing happens when you unlock the door of your car and step in it, start the engine and drive down your driveway. The same thing happens when you get your drill, plug it in and start drilling a hole.

    It's not the tool that is dangerous, it is the usage. If you leave a pistol laying in a locked safe, can it cause any harm?

    Now, when you pick it up and start using it, still the pistol is not dangerous. Yes, you are causing controlled explosions (I disagree with the term, there is nothing exploding in your pistol, the powder is burning, not exploding), but that's what the pistol was designed to do. If no one has changed its design characteristics or those of the ammo used, it is perfectly safe for the user, to fire the pistol. And it is perfectly safe for those around the user, as long as the user remembers the rules, at the beginning of this discussion. If he does not, then it's not the pistol who is dangerous, it is the user.

    Rgds
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  6. #16
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    John et al.,

    Our discussion seems to have strayed a bit from Jeff Cooper's excellent advice. It is generally more productive to review how one handles guns, including one's attitude, than to debate definitions.

    I was recently present when a highly trained and experienced individual experienced an accidental discharge while removing a 1911-A1 from a holster in which it was locked and cocked. A week after that incident, we happened to meet another fellow, a law enforcement firearms instructor with 35 years experience on that job, who had just done the same thing that same week, having his only accidental discharge in more than 35 years of using the 1911. In both instances, the individual was pulling the hammer back against the beaver tail/grip safety while pulling the trigger with the intention of lowering the hammer from full cock. In both instances, the skeleton hammer slipped from the individual's thumb and the gun discharged.

    In retrospect, this sounds pretty stupid. But both these fellows are highly safety oriented and practice safe gun handling religeously. The common factor in both cases is that they were distracted by something else and were not focused on the gun. This lack of complete focus certainly falls in the area of carelessness at worst and inattention at best, despite their training and philosophy about handling guns safely.

    My opinion is that the lesson to be gained is that their attitude had become one of complacency. Even though they customarily kept the gun pointed safely by training and reflex, they were so familiar with the weapons and had lowered the hammer by the above method so many times, they were complacent and not focused. The result was scary and you can be sure their attitudes have changed and they will probably forever monitor their attitude while handling firearms.

    Did I mention that because both individuals accidently fired the pistols while simultaneously removing them from the holster held in their other hand, each individual shot off part or all of a finger? That is one **** of an attitude adjustment.

    It is well worth thinking about Jeff Cooper's rules and how well we do or do not apply them on a daily basis.

    MontanaMike
    Last edited by MontanaMike; 2nd May 2005 at 01:06.


  7. #17
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    Quite so. That's why one of the first things I've accustomed myself when I first switched to 1911s, is never to lower the hammer in that way.

    Rgds
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  8. #18
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    John,

    I could not agree more. Lowering that hammer has always scared me. I keep my left finger in front of the hammer so if it drops it hits my finger, not the firing pin. If I have time and opportunity, I like to drop the magazine and eject the round in the chamber before lowering the hammer on an empty chamber.

    The ironic aspect of one of the accidents described above, is I had offered my opinion about at least keeping a finger in front of the hammer just that morning before the accident occured.

    MontanaMike

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetXteN
    ... not trying to be a dick or anything, but ...

    ... I can't see how someone can NOT characterize controlled explosions in their bare hand as being dangerous. Call me stupid, but last time I checked gunpowder was classified as an explosive.
    I'm not calling you stupid. But...last time I checked, smokeless powder was classified as a solid propellant. Black powder is classified as an explosive.

  10. #20
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    Provided everything is working properly

    Gun-powder doesn't explode, it burns rapidly. Same thing for gasoline in an engine, BTW. The fuel (gunpowder or gasoline/air) burns at a rapid, known rate. The burning fuel expands towards the path of least resistance, pushing the bullet down the barrel (or forcing the piston down in the case of an internal combustion engine). On rare occasions something goes wrong and there is an explosion. These are the catastrophic failures we hear about. The barrel splits, the cylinder grenades, ect... In an internal combustion engine we call, it pinging or detonation.

    Robert
    They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin

    No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)." Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution (with his note added), 1776.

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