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Thread: Links to some practice and training drills available on the 'net

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  1. #11
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    Every shot you fire will fall into 1 of 4 categories.
    Draw and fire
    Follow up
    transition
    reload
    Learn to master each individually and you have mastered all.
    I had the opportunity once to ask a firearms instructor for the military spec war guys what made their shooting so high speed low drag? His response was a simplified version of what Lurper posted. "Nothing advanced about it. We do the basics very well."
    "The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

  2. #12
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    i guess I should post this here so we can start to consolidate.
    Todd Jarret Vid:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32856867071363
    irq23
    Member NRA
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes." - Thomas Jefferson
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurper
    Just a comment on the "Tueller Drill" because it is one of my pet peeves.
    The quotations are taken directly from his article. It is an interesting visual "parlor trick" , but I have seen too many people try to say that it demonstrates that a knife is deadlier than a gun within 21 feet. It isn't!
    "Tueller drill" aside, how are you defining "deadlier?"

    If it takes me 3 seconds to draw and get off two good shots but a guy with a knife 21 feet away can get to me in 2 seconds, and he cuts me and I die because I wasn't able to shoot him, that's pretty deadly.

    (and I'm not trying to be a smart alec...I'm guinuinely asking)

    My personal opinion is (and this is semantics), a knife isn't "deadlier" than a gun. A gun just usually has a better range.

  4. #14
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    I am not one of those who claims a knife is deadlier. However I had a rather lengthy debate on another forum and many posters actually said that a knife trumps a gun within 21 feet (e.g. a guy with a knife would kill a guy with a gun every time). Personally, in the 1.5 seconds it takes for the knife wielder to close the 21 feet, I can hit the target 5 times from the holster. But, that wasn't even what Tueller was trying to advocate. What he was advocating was that officers should draw their weapons at the first hint of danger.

    Perhaps "deadlier" wasn't the best choice of words, but it is essentially the same as saying more effective, more lethal, etc., which is what many of the posters claimed. My point in the debate is that you should practice and train to a level of proficiency that enables you to draw and hit the target within 21 feet twice in 1.5 seconds.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurper
    I am not one of those who claims a knife is deadlier. However I had a rather lengthy debate on another forum and many posters actually said that a knife trumps a gun within 21 feet (e.g. a guy with a knife would kill a guy with a gun every time). Personally, in the 1.5 seconds it takes for the knife wielder to close the 21 feet, I can hit the target 5 times from the holster.

    Perhaps "deadlier" wasn't the best choice of words, but it is essentially the same as saying more effective, more lethal, etc., which is what many of the posters claimed. My point in the debate is that you should practice and train to a level of proficiency that enables you to draw and hit the target within 21 feet twice in 1.5 seconds.
    I don't hold that a knife is always better either, but I don't hold that a gun is ALWAYS better. There are too many variables.

    One, there are people that can't draw and fire a couple of good hits in 1.5 seconds. Sure, many people can, but not everybody. I know a couple of people than can barely do it in 4 seconds.

    Two, even if a person can draw and fire several good shots in the 1.5 seconds, there are no guarantees (under normal circumstances) that it will immediately incapacitate the attacker. Yes, there are all the usual arguments, but you can't GUARANTEE an instant cessation of activity.

    And again, this is just semantics, but using the term "more lethal" when comparing is, in nothing more than my opinion, a bad choice of words. If someone dies from a gunshot and another person dies from a knife cut, neither one is more or less dead than the other. (and again, it's simple semantics, I'm not arguing the point you're making).



    Quote Originally Posted by Lurper
    But, that wasn't even what Tueller was trying to advocate. What he was advocating was that officers should draw their weapons at the first hint of danger.
    You're probably right (I've never actually read the original article) but regardless of his intent, he seemed to show that some people can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, and I still contend that if a person with a knife can get to and cut you faster than you can draw and stop that person, the person with the knife is pretty deadly.
    Last edited by robbiev; 15th April 2007 at 13:04.


  6. #16
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    robbiev, that is the reason one should not stand still. You stated correctly that within close ranges the knife can be just as dangerous. Therefore, we should consider a lethal force confrontation as a dynamic situation. We should move off the line of attack, and make distance to give ourselves more room to work.

    It's not the tool being used, but the tactics employed that will determine the outcome.

    I am getting off topic a bit though.
    "The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

  7. #17
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    +1 Garrett. Moving off line and creating distance are vital components of the shooter's defense. Even if you get your hits on the BG with the knife in the "regulation" 1.5 seconds, there's an excellent chance that his momentum will land him on top of you if you don't get out of the way.

    And I agree with Lurper and Barry about the Tueller drill. It's about having an appreciation for how far your danger zone extends, not "when does a knife trump a gun."

    DVC
    adapt, improvise, overcome
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
    "One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrettwc
    robbiev, that is the reason one should not stand still.

    I agree, and when I practice, that's what I do. It just seemed there was an implication that a person with a gun would always win against a person with a knife, and obviously, that's not what you were saying.


    It's not the tool being used, but the tactics employed that will determine the outcome.
    I just had this exact same conversation on another message group, and gave a reply almost verbatim to what you said here. It seems some people consider only a gun to be deadly force and that if you stab someone with a knife or beat them with a 2x4, somehow, that doesn't count.

  9. #19
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    robbiev, I will never understand how people get some of those misconceptions in their head. There are no degrees of dead. You either are or you aren't.
    "The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

  10. #20
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by garrettwc
    robbiev, I will never understand how people get some of those misconceptions in their head. There are no degrees of dead. You either are or you aren't.
    I don't understand it either. I guess some people just aren't as smart as you and I.
    Last edited by robbiev; 17th April 2007 at 00:54.


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