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Thread: Recoil Spring Function

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  1. #21
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
    Location
    Lexington, North Carolina...or
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    Controlling Recoil (Long)

    Hi carsten,

    There are other, better ways to soften the blow between slide and frame than
    using a heavy recoil spring...and the best way is to go back to Browning's original design on the firing pin stop itself. The other factor that has an effect is the mainspring.

    EGW markets an oversized firing pin stop that allows the installer to size it for a light press fit. The benefits are preventing the stop from dropping out of position...which can and does happen when the firing pin spring gets tired...
    and keeping the extractor stable in its channel. The EGW stop also comes
    with square at the bottom, on the area that contacts the hammer. This lets the installer cut a smaller radius on the bottom to reduce the mechanical advantage of the slide when it recoils and cocks the hammer.

    The radius on your stop is probably industry standard...or nominally 7/32nd inch. The original stop had a much smaller radius...very nearly square...and
    was .075 to .080 inch...nominally .078 inch. It makes a tremendous difference in the slide's velocity, and there are two mechanical reasons for it.

    One...as noted...in the reduction of the slide's mechanical advantage in cocking the hammer, and thus absorbing part of the momentum imparted on the slide under recoil. The second factor is in delaying the slide's movement for a fraction of a second, and thus delaying the barrel's unlock timing.

    The slide and barrel move backward as a unit for about .100 inch while the bullet is still in the barrel. The necessary momentum for the complete recoil cycle is established in that first one-tenth inch of travel. (You'll need to convert that to metric in order to see just how short that distance is.)

    If the slide is delayed from movement at that critical point, the momentum
    imparted on the slide dissipates somewhat, and is absorbed by the mainspring
    rather than relying on the recoil spring to slow it down AFTER the slide is moving at full speed. Simply put...it acts much like applying a brake for a second just after pushing an accelerator pedal. The recoil spring has very little effect on slowing the slide in the first thenth-inch of travel, and has
    the most effect when it approaches full compression. With the "brake" applied
    early on in the stroke...while the recoil spring is barely more than at pre-load
    tension,(about 3.5 pounds) the slide's rearward movement is more rapidly
    dissipated than by the recoil spring's small pre-load. Less momentum remains to complete the cycle, and the slide doesn't hit the impact surface as sharply.

    Install a 23 or even a 25 pound mainspring along with a small radius stop...
    and I'd be willing to bet that your brass will barely dribble out of the port
    with your 20-pound recoil spring...if the slide even makes full travel. I've
    induced short-stroke malfunctions using that combination with 18-pound springs.

    After hearing your description of your pistol's operating characteristics, I also have to suspect that the barrel is unlocking a bit too early in the cycle...maybe at around .080 inch of travel. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it can make a big difference in the slide's rearward speed.

    Standin' by...

  2. #22
    Wow! I just learned a lot!
    I like your springless litmus test for feeding Tuner.........I'll be doing that myself from now on! I'll be trying out some of EGW's slide stops as well!
    You can afford to have a temper or you can afford to carry a gun. You CAN'T afford both.
    Xavier's Guns
    Xavier's Blog

  3. #23
    Join Date
    21st August 2004
    Location
    upsate NY
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    54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    Howdy Wilson, and welcome aboard.

    You had a first-hand experience with what's known as "Spring Set." All new springs that have been stored at free length are a bit stronger than their
    numbers indicate until they take a set. Next time you change out a spring,
    you can avoid problems during the settling-in period by Locking the slide back and leaving it for a few hours...Overnight will probably do. This also very often occurs with new mainsprings unless you use one that's under spec
    rating.

    Just for what it's worth...If your pistol showed problems during the spring's break-in period, it's a pretty good sign that you need a bit lighter spring
    for that gun firing that particular ammunition.

    Luck!

    Tuner
    Hi to all, I am having a spring issue myself with a load I am using for competition. I went down to a 8# spring for this load (nothing heavier worked so far) and after 20-30 rounds (brand new spring) had nothing but stove pipes and failure to eject (the spent case is sitting over the next live round). I am using a Springfield 1911-A-1 target with only about 2000 rounds through it.
    I uese 3.6 of BE which is used by allot of folks with no issues.
    My question is: is this a spring issue still (can't go any lower)or the ejector may need to be longer. The extractor has good tension (used all reocmended tests).

    Any help will be appreciated.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    14th October 2004
    Location
    mid Michigan
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    recoil spring

    Quote Originally Posted by whoop
    Hi to all, I am having a spring issue myself with a load I am using for competition. I went down to a 8# spring for this load (nothing heavier worked so far) and after 20-30 rounds (brand new spring) had nothing but stove pipes and failure to eject (the spent case is sitting over the next live round). I am using a Springfield 1911-A-1 target with only about 2000 rounds through it.
    I uese 3.6 of BE which is used by allot of folks with no issues.
    My question is: is this a spring issue still (can't go any lower)or the ejector may need to be longer. The extractor has good tension (used all reocmended tests).

    Any help will be appreciated.
    Just my observations as an old mechanic an not a gunsmith but i sounds af if the slice is short cyling and not reaching full rearward travel ot eject the spent case and tries to put in back in the chamber and jams on the upcoming round in the mag. As I see it you can do one of the followiong; load some healthier ammo, use a weaker recoil spring, use a weaker mainspring or get an extended ejector. That's my opinion, ther a re a lot of people on this site that know a lot more of 1911 function than I.
    Bear's Story .

    If you have no money and few possesions, if you have a dog you are still rich.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    21st August 2004
    Location
    upsate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearandoldman
    Just my observations as an old mechanic an not a gunsmith but i sounds af if the slice is short cyling and not reaching full rearward travel ot eject the spent case and tries to put in back in the chamber and jams on the upcoming round in the mag. As I see it you can do one of the followiong; load some healthier ammo, use a weaker recoil spring, use a weaker mainspring or get an extended ejector. That's my opinion, ther a re a lot of people on this site that know a lot more of 1911 function than I.
    Thanks a bunch. I have been overlooking the mainspring but saw some other posts for other issues that talked about a reduced one to aide in ejection. It makes sense to me since I am down to a 8# spring and still have the issues. I am new to this stuff and are learning a bunch from you folks.
    Heavier loads do work fine so the mainspring may be the culprit. I have a Springfiled 1911-A-1. Is that hard to change out?

    thanks again.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    14th October 2004
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    mid Michigan
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    recoil spring

    [QUOTE=whoop]Thanks a bunch. I have been overlooking the mainspring but saw some other posts for other issues that talked about a reduced one to aide in ejection. It makes sense to me since I am down to a 8# spring and still have the issues. I am new to this stuff and are learning a bunch from you folks.
    Heavier loads do work fine so the mainspring may be the culprit. I have a Springfiled 1911-A-1. Is that hard to change out?

    thanks again. [/QUOTE
    Have never done it but tryibng to compress and install a spring can be a problem at time, should not be all that difficult though.

    Have had this same problem on my SA Micro, as a 3" gun is more susceptible to slide timing as it has to do the same thing a 5" gun does in 60% of the time. My Micro runs fine on most any ammo, especially CCI Blazer which is a fairly hot load. When using Wolf it will short cycle rarely and at the time you notice a lighter sound of a weak round. Wolf just has a light round once in a while and while it runs great in my 5" gun, as I say it will now and then short cycle in the Micro, while the CCI stuff has never failed yet nor any of the other stuff I have used in it, and I have used a lot of different ammo.
    Bear's Story .

    If you have no money and few possesions, if you have a dog you are still rich.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    21st August 2004
    Location
    upsate NY
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    [QUOTE=bearandoldman]
    Quote Originally Posted by whoop
    Thanks a bunch. I have been overlooking the mainspring but saw some other posts for other issues that talked about a reduced one to aide in ejection. It makes sense to me since I am down to a 8# spring and still have the issues. I am new to this stuff and are learning a bunch from you folks.
    Heavier loads do work fine so the mainspring may be the culprit. I have a Springfiled 1911-A-1. Is that hard to change out?

    thanks again. [/QUOTE
    Have never done it but tryibng to compress and install a spring can be a problem at time, should not be all that difficult though.

    Have had this same problem on my SA Micro, as a 3" gun is more susceptible to slide timing as it has to do the same thing a 5" gun does in 60% of the time. My Micro runs fine on most any ammo, especially CCI Blazer which is a fairly hot load. When using Wolf it will short cycle rarely and at the time you notice a lighter sound of a weak round. Wolf just has a light round once in a while and while it runs great in my 5" gun, as I say it will now and then short cycle in the Micro, while the CCI stuff has never failed yet nor any of the other stuff I have used in it, and I have used a lot of different ammo.
    I just removed mine whoich also has the ILS system. I ordered a kit that has a few lighter mainsprings. Mine is currently 28#'s Seems allot to me for target loads. For the little investment and learning curve it is worth it.
    Thanks for your help.

    PS: I have a couple of dogs myself and they make me very rich!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    14th October 2004
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    mid Michigan
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    recoil springs

    [QUOTE=whoop]
    Quote Originally Posted by bearandoldman
    I just removed mine whoich also has the ILS system. I ordered a kit that has a few lighter mainsprings. Mine is currently 28#'s Seems allot to me for target loads. For the little investment and learning curve it is worth it.
    Thanks for your help.

    PS: I have a couple of dogs myself and they make me very rich!
    Did not sound like it would be too bad of a job, just use some caution when hancling compressed springs. Lets see a picture of them dogs some time and Bear say tel them Wooooofie, and give them some dog dookies.
    Bear's Story .

    If you have no money and few possesions, if you have a dog you are still rich.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    21st August 2004
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    upsate NY
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    [QUOTE=bearandoldman]
    Quote Originally Posted by whoop
    Did not sound like it would be too bad of a job, just use some caution when hancling compressed springs. Lets see a picture of them dogs some time and Bear say tel them Wooooofie, and give them some dog dookies.
    Already havit it out and will take time to do some extensive cleaning. Will get pics to ya soon. They alreday eat to many cookies....fat dogs....LOL

    TTYL

  10. #30
    Join Date
    29th November 2005
    Location
    Austin,Texas
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    Hey Tuner,I just read your recoil spring article(s) and I learned quite alot,THANKS.But would adding a full length guide rod to a #16 recoil spring to slide on,help with the increase of compression variables?Compared to using a #18 or #20 spring without a full length rod.

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