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Thread: Recoil Function

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  1. #11
    Join Date
    29th May 2004
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    Athens, Greece, Earth
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    JPL. If that stands for Jet Propulsion Laboratories, these guys have access to some amazing equipment, let's wait and see.

    Rgds
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  2. #12
    Join Date
    21st December 2004
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    Well, got everything gathered for the photos except the "trigger" to set off the flash. I need a switch that mounts up against the end of the barrel. It will have to be a "one time use" switch, since the bullet will destroy it. So I will have to make 20 or 30 of them. And locate them at different distances from the barrel. Even put one about a half inch in the barrel. So it will probably be about the size of a couple needles, as not to obstruct the bullet coming out!
    I got an 35mm camera and a very short duration flash from work. The only reason I got that was they never use it anymore. Plus I will have to mount this assembly in a dark box, since the picture will be a sort of time exposer, with the flash making the picture.
    John,you right I work for JPL in Pasadena, but I am not one of the guys in the white coveralls. I work in the transportation dept as a truck driver. And my hobby is 4X4 Jeeps, but starting to like the Colt 45 auto.
    STEVE

  3. #13
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    Steve,

    I do not know, I do not like the idea of putting things inside the barrel, something bothers me with this idea.

    As for 4x4s, why don't you visit http://www.m1911.org/trucks.htm, I am sure you'll find ... interesting things there.

    Rgds
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  4. #14
    Join Date
    2nd December 2004
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    Triggering the strobe on sound is what is used most of the time. If you place the pickup on the gun near the hammer you can get 'bullet in barrel' pictures from the hammer impact. Placing it futher away allows for bullet out of barrel. We place the pickup about 45 degrees to the side from boreline.

  5. #15
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    19th July 2004
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    Talking

    So, I take it you guys don't think my "...and you take the picture really, really fast!" method will work?



    You guys hurry up, hurry up, hurry up...

    {Jumping from one foot to the other in excitement}

  6. #16
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    Well, I talked to a couple guys at work. One of them said that using a flash in a dark box would work, but the muzzle blast would wash out the picture of the bullet. Which in this picture they were right.


    Here is a Colt Government model pistol showing the initial slide movement. Switch wire is taped to slide and wrapped across muzzle. The 230 grain round nose jacketed bullet can just be made out in the glare of the muzzle flash; it's left hand rifling marks visible. There is a one inch paper sticker on the slide and frame which shows that the slide has recoiled about 0.16 inches while the bullet was still inside.
    The slide and it's attached parts weigh 17.5 ounces; or 7660 grains, and the bullet travels 4.4 inches. 4.4 x 230 / 7660 = 0.13 inches. The reaction of the gunpowder accounts for the rest. Recoil spring tention and bullet velocity are irrelevant.



    STEVE

  7. #17
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    1st June 2004
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    Aha!

    Which pretty much blows Kuhnhausen's theory to Helen Gone.

    He states that there is no slide movement until the bullet leaves the muzzle and breaks the balanced thrust vector.

    In this photograph, showing about .130 inch of slide movement at the instant the bullet breaks muzzle contact...which puts the beginning of unlock timing just a bit late. Ordnance spec pistols begin the unlock phase at .090-.110 inch of barrel movement rearward, while match-tuned guns can delay it until
    .125 or a little more to allow the case to be extracted while the barrel is at a less severe angle.

    I'd be willing to bet that here is a pistol that will function pretty well with the extractor removed.

    Good pictures Steve! Keep'em comin'.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
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    Washington State
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    Okay there Tunerfish..........

    So by the time the bullet exits the muzzle, the barrel is unlocked..........with ya so far..........but @ .13 isn't the barrel heading for its bed? In the midst of tilting?.......or at least right at start of it anyway........

    So is it physically possible for the barrel to be tilted (headed for bed) before the bullet exits the muzzle? Would using different links affect that? As link length affects the timing of barrel link down.

    Would like to take the measurement of this here 1911 specimen used in the pics to see at what points does it actually start to unlock, is fully unlocked, and then is in bed (nighty night!)

    Also while my fertile slide rule mind is running full steam here (the wheel is turnin', but the squirrel just ain't movin')..........the barrel can't achive the point of linking down with the bullet still in the barrel, otherwise all your shots would go high due to the barrel tilt. But if the gun is short linked, that would bring the barrel down faster which means the bullet is closer to the mouth of the muzzle instead of farther away. From the pic I'd say that total link down of the barrel (without crunching numbers) is less than 2" from the muzzle?

    Will be doing some measuring to see at what point my 1911's are in full link down..........want to see how different they may be.

  9. #19
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    1st June 2004
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    Lexington, North Carolina...or
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    Tilt!

    Wichaka said...many things. Among them:

    So by the time the bullet exits the muzzle, the barrel is unlocked..........with ya so far..........but @ .13 isn't the barrel heading for its bed? In the midst of tilting?.......or at least right at start of it anyway.
    *************

    Depends on where the unlock sequence begins. Some will start as early as .090 inch of travel...Some will start as late as .125 inch or more.
    There's not a danger in starting it early as long as chamber pressure isn't
    at its peak...but the lower the better. Guns that delay the onset of unlock timiing to .110 or more will usually function without an extractor, and their extractors last forever, since they're loafing. Guns that start early won't function without an extractor, because the extraxctor has to pull the case free both at an angle and against low chamber pressure.
    *************

    So is it physically possible for the barrel to be tilted (headed for bed) before the bullet exits the muzzle? Would using different links affect that? As link length affects the timing of barrel link down.
    ********************

    Yes. Re-read the above. When I got copies of Kuhnhausen's shop manuals, he explained the effects of delaying unlock and linkdown timing in match-grade pistols. I'll find the page number where it's covered and post it later.
    ******************

    Would like to take the measurement of this here 1911 specimen used in the pics to see at what points does it actually start to unlock, is fully unlocked, and then is in bed (nighty night!)

    What I'd like to do is test another gun with the same ammunition lot. You'll likely see a much different result...and then send me the top end of the second gun so I can fit a firing pin stop with a .075 radious...and install a 23# mainspring...and repeat the test again to show how the linkdown timing is affected.

    Another test with this same gun firing a round of Remington 185-grain +p
    will also show a different bullet/slide position.

    Want to make life easy for your extractor? Delay the linkdown timing a bit.
    Like I said...the gun pictured above will probably function without an extractor, since its timing already seems pretty late.

    Fascinating stuff!

  10. #20
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    14th October 2004
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    morning Tuner

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    Wichaka said...many things. Among them:

    So by the time the bullet exits the muzzle, the barrel is unlocked..........with ya so far..........but @ .13 isn't the barrel heading for its bed? In the midst of tilting?.......or at least right at start of it anyway.
    *************

    Depends on where the unlock sequence begins. Some will start as early as .090 inch of travel...Some will start as late as .125 inch or more.
    There's not a danger in starting it early as long as chamber pressure isn't
    at its peak...but the lower the better. Guns that delay the onset of unlock timiing to .110 or more will usually function without an extractor, and their extractors last forever, since they're loafing. Guns that start early won't function without an extractor, because the extraxctor has to pull the case free both at an angle and against low chamber pressure.
    *************

    So is it physically possible for the barrel to be tilted (headed for bed) before the bullet exits the muzzle? Would using different links affect that? As link length affects the timing of barrel link down.
    ********************

    Yes. Re-read the above. When I got copies of Kuhnhausen's shop manuals, he explained the effects of delaying unlock and linkdown timing in match-grade pistols. I'll find the page number where it's covered and post it later.
    ******************

    Would like to take the measurement of this here 1911 specimen used in the pics to see at what points does it actually start to unlock, is fully unlocked, and then is in bed (nighty night!)

    What I'd like to do is test another gun with the same ammunition lot. You'll likely see a much different result...and then send me the top end of the second gun so I can fit a firing pin stop with a .075 radious...and install a 23# mainspring...and repeat the test again to show how the linkdown timing is affected.

    Another test with this same gun firing a round of Remington 185-grain +p
    will also show a different bullet/slide position.

    Want to make life easy for your extractor? Delay the linkdown timing a bit.
    Like I said...the gun pictured above will probably function without an extractor, since its timing already seems pretty late.

    Fascinating stuff!
    Merry Chruistmas and Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooofie!!!!!!!!!!! to you and the pack.
    Bear's Story .

    If you have no money and few possesions, if you have a dog you are still rich.

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