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Thread: Recoil Function

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  1. #21
    Join Date
    21st December 2004
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    Getting ready to do some last minute Christmas shooping. Ran across this article. Long and detailed, so be ready to drink a few cups of coffee 1911Tuner!!!! Hope everyone has a good Christmas, and stay safe.
    STEVEhttp://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/recoil_semiauto.html

  2. #22
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
    Location
    Lexington, North Carolina...or
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    Discussions Above and Beyond (Long)

    Howdy Steve,

    Interesting discussion, and pretty well spot on, I'd say.

    The recoil cycle can be altered as to the timing of bullet exit in relation to the amount of slide travel by simply going to a lighter faster bullet...even though the momentum generated against the slide would be the same. Since the mass of the slide remains constant, as does its inertial resistance to acceleration, the bullet will still exit at an earlier point in the slide travel.

    This leads to some conclusions. Since the recoil cycle is completed by the momentum that it gets from the bullet while it's in the barrel...getting the bullet out quicker would tend to decrease the amount of momentum available for the slide to absorb because it reduces the bullet's dwell time within the barrel. My theory is...and has always been...that whenever a lighter, faster bullet is used, the recoil spring load should be lowered in order to utilize the amount of momentum available for the cycle. This goes in direct opposition to the generally accepted wisdom of using a heavier spring for light, high-velocity ammunition of the +p category...and practice has bron this out whenever I ran into a pistol with functional issues with this type of ammunition. The owners had...almost without exception...upped the recoil spring load for their choice of ammo. This hasn't been as critical until bullet weight has gone below 200 grains and velocities above 900 fps, though. It's the 185-grain screamers and near-proof pressures that give rise to the problems in most cases....and this is amplified whenever barrels shorter than 5-inches is part of the picture. Since the lightweight, high pressure screamers are often used in order to offset the velocity loss and help to insure expansion reliability...this is likely why we see so many pistols in the
    Commander length class and shorter produce so many functional problems.

    Even though the earlier bullet exit and resulting loss of momentum would be offset by the lighter slides, it seems that there's a point of diminishing return...and since the shorter pistols are generally equipped with high spring rates...it soon becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.

    Stiff springs are partly necessary with lightened slides...but not for frame protection. It's because the forward momentum of these short, light slides
    sometimes isn't enough for reliable feeding and return to battery. Lighten the spring enough to provide full travel in recoil, and you may lose too much momentum for the other half of the cycle.

    I've always approached any chopped variant with these things in mind...and it's partly why I've had good success in getting them to run reliably. While it's true that reducing the spring tension will allow for more impact shock in recoil...with attendant reduced life span for the guns...it should be kept in mind that these pistols were never intended for heavy range use or weekly target shooting sessions. They were designed and for concealed carry and their purpose is strictly business. Their niche is much like alloy-framed,
    snub-nosed revolvers..."Carried a lot and seldom shot."

  3. #23
    Join Date
    21st December 2004
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    Mornin' folks. I have not halted my test with the photos. The weather has been "NASTY" here in sunny southern California!!! Rain every day it seems. More as we speak. Have all the equipment needed, except the weather. I made up 20 "triggers for the flash, so if it works the way I want, I should have some good pictures in the works.
    STEVE

  4. #24
    Join Date
    15th December 2004
    Location
    Ohio
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    JPL, Love the pictures. I see it is not supposed to rain on saturday, if you know what I'm saying. Lol
    Have a great day!
    Mark
    NRA Life Member
    VFW
    ____________________________________________

    If you don't have time to do it right; when will you have time to do it over?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    6th February 2005
    Location
    Texas
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    Tuners Quote: "This leads to some conclusions. Since the recoil cycle is completed by the momentum that it gets from the bullet while it's in the barrel...getting the bullet out quicker would tend to decrease the amount of momentum available for the slide to absorb because it reduces the bullet's dwell time within the barrel. My theory is...and has always been...that whenever a lighter, faster bullet is used, the recoil spring load should be lowered in order to utilize the amount of momentum available for the cycle. This goes in direct opposition to the generally accepted wisdom of using a heavier spring for light, high-velocity ammunition of the +p category...and practice has bron this out whenever I ran into a pistol with functional issues with this type of ammunition. The owners had...almost without exception...upped the recoil spring load for their choice of ammo."

    Wow, Tuner that is so profound. You are the first I have read to state this theory and it make more sense than any other I have read.
    Where did you learn all this physics stuff anyway?
    Paul

  6. #26
    Join Date
    8th February 2005
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    Tuner,
    I am new to the site, and have enjoyed your eloquent postings. I have a Kimber Tactical Pro II and recently replaced the spring with a Wolf variable rate at 18 pounds. I thought the gun was more like a commander (18 lb) because of the 4 inch barrel setup, but I recently learned that it required a spring more compatible with officer (22 lb). It is only 4 inches, so it falls in between the 4.25 and the 3.5 barrels. The wolf spring site mentions using an oversized spring with the Kimber compacts without a shock buffer. So what should I do to protect my aluminum frame? go with the lighter spring, or go heavier and risk breaking something? Also, shok-buf or none? Thanks in advance.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    8th February 2005
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    Tuner,
    for your assistance in answering my question, I have included the text from the Wolff website. (The address for the following page is: http://www.gunsprings.com/SemiAuto/K...F.html#Kimber4 )

    Kimber Compact & Pro Carry - 4" pistols

    Kimber 4" pistols all use the same springs as the Colt Officers pistols.

    Factory supplied recoil spring are Colt Officers full-diameter 22 pounds (use Stock Nbr 490xx)
    Factory hammer spring (mainspring) is rated at 23 pounds.
    Magazine springs are the same as Colt.
    All other misc springs are the same as the Colt Government
    Click here to link to Colt Officers springs
    Click here to link to Colt 1911 springs



    Wolff Improved XP Recoil Spring
    Wolff improved design recoil spring offers higher battery pressure along with a higher recoil rating, providing optimal functioning.
    For all Pro Carry and Compact 4" Kimber guns only.
    Stock No. 32725....$ 7.89ea

  8. #28
    Join Date
    5th December 2006
    Location
    Norfolk, Va
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    OK thats enough. I shoot for enjoyment, now I'm learning something. lalalalalalalalalala I'm not reading. Darn it didn't work. Keep up the good work and explanations. I've been shooting since I was 12 yrs old or so and have learned more in the last few months, then I have in years about a sport I so love.
    Bob L.

    "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

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