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Thread: Recoil

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  1. #201
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    Just remember one thing. Springs always work in two ways. They absorb energy when compressed but they also release energy when they expand. And certain parts of the pistol are more capable to absorb impact (like the frame area where the slide hits as it recoils) than others (like the barrel feet, slide stop and slide stop holes on the frame).
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by carsten1911
    And they do make the most important part! It the energy in the system isnt lost to some black hole in space: Energy of a 9mm at the muzzle is about 500 Joule. Recoil (if expressed in Joule) is about 5 to 6 Joule. Where does the rest of the energy go? It doesnt dissolve: It goes into spring tension, friction, stress on materiel.... and does this to 99%. So they are of big importance.
    Or did I overlook something?
    you have a mis-understanding. Conservation of Energy applies to the "System" as a whole.

    Conservation of Momentum -- is the "equal and opposite..." entity.

    Your concept -- 500 Joule at the Muzzle somehow means 500 Joule in recoil energy --- is Completely Wrong. I have explained it as well as i can -- please re-read what i have posted.

    There is no "equal and opposite..." concept with regard to Energy -- only Momentum.

    That is why Momentum is the starting point for figuring out Recoil -- Not Muzzle Energy.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by John
    Just remember one thing. Springs always work in two ways. They absorb energy when compressed but they also release energy when they expand. And certain parts of the pistol are more capable to absorb impact (like the frame area where the slide hits as it recoils) than others (like the barrel feet, slide stop and slide stop holes on the frame).
    yes -- but i dont see what your getting at.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    Well...I don't know if that's entirely the case. Theoretically, driving a 100 grain bullet to 2,000 fps and a 200-grain bullet to 1,000 fps should produce the same free recoil in fpe. A more accurate statement might be that the heavier bullet would produce a different "feel" or perception. The lighter bullet's felt recoil would be more of a quick, sharp slap, while the heavier one would produce more of a shove. Sort of like the difference between a stinging left jab as opposed to a hard left hook. You absorb the same energy, but your bodily reaction and recovery from the shock is different for each one.

    This simply cannot be true. Somone had to measure the muzzle velocity WRONG in order for it to be experienced.

    A 1911 because of moving parts may somehow affect things -- but if we were talking a bolt action rifle or bolt action handgun -- this cannot be true.

    The talk of a "quick sharp slap" vs "a shove" also cannot be the case.

    WHY ? i will explain.

    see post http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=186
    for information.


    Energy is Force thru Distance -- F*D, a bullet weighing half as much going twice as fast has the Identical Momentum -- but the lighter bullet has twice as much Energy -- energy is proportional to velocity squared -- twice as fast -- means a factor of 4 -- but half the weight -- reduces is to a factor of 2.

    so lighter faster bullet -- same Momentum, twice as much Energy.

    from above, Energy = F*D -- so for same length barrels -- D is same -- so F has to be twice as much for lighter bullet -- the Average Force in the barrel.

    Momentum is also F*T -- since both bullets have same Momentum -- and we just showed the average Force is related by 2 times -- the Time the bullet is in the barrel is also related by 2 times.

    the lighter faster bullet is in the barrel half the time -- at twice the force while in the barrel.

    the heavier bullet is in the barrel twice as long -- with half the force;

    you probably think i just proved your point -- longer weaker push vs shorter harder push.

    but look at the real times.

    even though 1 bullet is in barrel twice as long -- how long is long ?

    the average velocity in the barrel is also half the muzzle velocity; -- another easy derivation i will leave out and ask you to believe.

    so the 2000 FPS bullet has average velocity of 1000 FPS while in the barrel.
    and the 1000 FPS bullet has average velocity of 500FPS while in the barrel.


    if the barrel is 6 inches -- 1/2 foot -- then the lighter bullet is in the barrel for 1/2000 of a second. the heavier bullet is in the barrel for 1/1000 of a second.

    you cannot say 1/1000 of a second is a LONG PUSH and 1/2000 of a second is a "SHORT SLAP" -- those times are too small to be peceived as different.


    but if these two ARE perceived differently -- i can tell you why.

    it WILL be due to the MUZZLE EXHAUST GASSES -- the ROCKET MOTOR EFFECT; and those are significant enough to be felt

    remember the one BULLET is under TWICE the pressure -- after the bullet is gone -- those muzzle gasses are pushing like a rocket twice as hard -- and also -- the higher pressure required more powder -- which generates more GAS.

    because the lighter bullet has twice the energy -- it requires aproximately twice the powder -- Energy comes from powder.

    SO -- i claim there is no difference -- and/or IF there is -- it has to be due to the Barrel Gasses under Pressure.

    Fit both guns with a highly efficient muzzle brake, make both guns weigh the same -- and then they will feel the same.
    Last edited by emiddio; 25th September 2006 at 13:49.


  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by emiddio

    That is why Momentum is the starting point for figuring out Recoil -- Not Muzzle Energy.
    Well, Emiddio,

    this is what was my first statement, while you stated that the only thing to determine recoil was energy...you remember?

    Glad we met at this point...
    "............................" (Charlie Chaplin)

    (Could I get the Smilies black and white?? )

  6. #206
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    Recoil...

    Guys....This one's flown so far off-topic that nobody's readin' it any more.

  7. #207
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    Quite an interesting thread, but it is enough to make this ol’ physics/physical science teacher’s head hurt. It reminds me of the 15th century theologians who spent hours of time arguing about how many angels can sit on the head of a pin! Turner is right, well, 99.999999% right. The .0000001% is just a matter of semantics not a matter of mechanics or physics.

    Let’s see if I can simplify this discussion: aim the pistol, squeeze the trigger, hit the target, be happy. Yep, that about sums it up.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeswamp
    Let’s see if I can simplify this discussion: aim the pistol, squeeze the trigger, hit the target, be happy. Yep, that about sums
    Close. The reason it was started was to clarify how the 1911 and other recoil-operated pistols work. More specifically: "What makes the slide move?"

    To wit:

    Bullet has mass. Slide has mass. In order to move mass, force must be exerted on it.
    Force forward equals force backward. No force, no movement. No movement, no momentum. There is only one force available when the gun fires, the source of which drives both bullet and slide in opposite directions. The slide doesn't move backward simply because the bullet moves forward. Force must be exerted on both, unless...as some seem to believe...the slide moves because it's responding to the gravitational pull from the planet Zog.

    Finally...The barrel cannot...does not...recoil and drive the slide. When the slide moves, it pulls the barrel with it. (Oh wait! I forgot about Zog's powerful influence.
    Maybe that's what causes the barrel to reverse directions with 20,000 psi pushing it forward via the bullet's extremely tight fit as it passes through the bore.)

    To simplify to event as much as possible:

    Bullet<===Force===>Slide&Barrel-->{linkdown}-->Slide

    I'm all done now...

  9. #209
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    Now a sticky thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    Close. The reason it was started was to clarify how the 1911 and other recoil-operated pistols work. More specifically: "What makes the slide move?"

    To simplify to event as much as possible:

    Bullet<===Force===>Slide&Barrel-->{linkdown}-->Slide

    I'm all done now...
    Johnny,

    you did a good job of explaining, and I am sure everybody got and understood your original message.

    Unfortunately this thread grew totally out of readability (blame me ). Maybe a moderator could cut it to a readable size, so others might benefit from it instead of being deterred? For it is a sticky now, and these should provide important infos to all readers.

    All the formula and calculating stuff could be transferred to another thread "Hunter´s formula" or "Emiddio´s formulas".... ? Just a suggestion.
    "............................" (Charlie Chaplin)

    (Could I get the Smilies black and white?? )

  10. #210
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    Indeed, it seems that this thread has served its purpose in life, so I closed it.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

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