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Thread: Why is it bad to drop the slide without a loaded magazine?

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  1. #11
    Join Date
    7th December 2004
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    Conifer, Colo.
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    Slide dropping

    Adam,
    I believe what you are describing is what is commonly referred to as; "a Type Three malfunction clearance". The racking of the slide should be done without letting the slide release every time. So, you have figured that part out. The other part of the equation is the time required to rack and release three times ...as opposed to simply racking the slide three times rapidly to clear any obstruction in the chamber area. Probably cut out about 2/3's of the time it takes to do it the other way. At the school I worked at, we gave the student 5.4 seconds to complete the entire clearance proceedure from "point in" to fully cleared. By the way, one would have to slam the slide into the empty chambers literally thousands of times in a relatively short period of time to do any noticable damge to his piece. I do not let my students "entertain" themselves that way and most responsible gunowners are not going to engage in this type of activity.... I hope...
    "When in doubt, empty the magazine"..!!

  2. #12
    Join Date
    30th January 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    Ultimately, the slidestop and lower lug bring it to a dead stop. The entire feeding cycle acts to bleed the slide's momentum with every separate function. By the numbers:

    Now, go back and remove the ammunition from the equation, and you can see how much resistance is lost.

    Clear as mud?
    Clear as a BELL! This was an incredible post! Thanks for taking the time to go through the steps so that we could better understand all that is at stake.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
    It only takes a second to dial 911; it could take the rest of your life for help to arrive...
    Posts are my opinion based on my experience; YMMV.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    24th January 2006
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    Los Angeles, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blasterboy
    Adam,
    I believe what you are describing is what is commonly referred to as; "a Type Three malfunction clearance". The racking of the slide should be done without letting the slide release every time. So, you have figured that part out.
    Thanks for that. I'll be receiving live instruction on this drill later this week, but it's good to know that the drill doesn't require doing something that may be harmful to the pistol. In this case, it would seem that doing the drill correctly also protects the gun.
    Adam T.

    We're on the Road to Serfdom. Frederick Hayek.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
    Location
    Lexington, North Carolina...or
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    re:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pappy
    Johnny, any idea how many "slide-dropping" cycles it would take to adversly affect a well made (no cheapie parts) 1911? Pappy
    Depends, Pappy...What type of steel...How hard/soft...Recoil spring rating, etc. Stainless steel generally has a lower shear strength than carbon, all else being equal.

    The problem isn't so much in cracking the lower lug at the front junction with the barrel as it is in deforming the lug feet. As the feet set back, it delays the linkdown and drop timing of the barrel. Sometimes it takes a lot of abuse, and sometimes not so much. If the barrel is riding the link, and causes the slidestop pin to impact the feet toward the tips...it can happen pretty quickly.

    As the barrel moves rearward with the slide it reaches the point that begins the unlock sequence. if the lug feet are deformed rearward from impact, the lower lug has to move farther backward in order to swing the link to the unlock timing point so that it can draw the barrel down. As the barrel links down, the forward radius of the lower lug allows the barrel to drop. So...
    the barrel reaches the beginning of the unlock sequence at say... .130 inch of slide travel instead of its original .100 or so. A delay in the beginning means a delay from that point on...like an algebraic equation. Once it goes wrong, it's wrong all the way to the bottom of the page, and in the case of delayed timing, it multiplies in its error. The slide doesn't know that the barrel isn't completely out of the way, and continues its cycle. When the barrel starts to drop at a later point, the slide is still accelerating because the barrel's mass has been eliminated.

    There's another point of potential damage that I forgot to mention because I was concentrating on the lower barrel lug. That place is the slidestop pin holes on either side of the frame. Unimpeded impact on the slidestop pin
    tends to egg-shape...and can cause the frame to crack adjacent to the bottom radius of the holes...usually on the left side. Alloy-framed pistols, in particular, are prone to this failure. Seen this one a lot on steel and alloy framed pistols.
    *********************

    Blasterboy said:
    >By the way, one would have to slam the slide into the empty chambers literally thousands of times in a relatively short period of time to do any noticable damge to his piece.<

    I respectfully have to disagree with that one. Steel to steel impact
    damage is cumulative. The peening and/or deformation occurs with every impact, and the steel never recovers from even one impact of this kind of force. Again, depending on the factors mentioned above, it can take a lot of abuse...or it can happen quickly, even in high-quality pistols. I've seen a lot of this kind of damage over the last 40+ years, and inevitably...when I've seen it on pistols that didn't simply fail
    due to many long years of hard use...the owner has admitted to playing with the gun by dropping the slide on empty. The ones who didn't admit to it
    usually did so because they were sharp enough to cover their abuse because
    they had bought the gun at the shop where I worked, and were hoping that
    the proprietor would exchange the "defective' pistol for another one...or because they realized that they had done the damage, and didn't want to appear ignorant. Body language usually provided me with the truth.
    **********************

    Adam T...The 1911 isn't a weak or fragile pistol...but it was designed to feed ammunition from the magazine. There's a certain amount of over-engineering that will allow for some abuse...such as the original spring-tempered steel extractor that would allow single-loading of the chamber in the event of a lost magazine in an emergency...but it wasn't intended to withstand it on a regular basis. Repeated abuse that goes beyond the engineering allowance for it will cause anything to fail sooner rather than later. If the pistol is handled and used a lot, it's inevitable that the slide will hit on empty at some point. A hand slipping...Inadvertent slidestop release...Incomplete slidestop engagement in the notch when manually locking it back...Failure to lock on empty, etc. will occur sooner or later. Doing it on purpose is just another nail in the coffin.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    24th January 2006
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    Tuner,

    As usual, your post is compelling and informative. I won't be dropping the slide on empty (at least intentionally) any time soon.

    Thanks again for the great information.
    Adam T.

    We're on the Road to Serfdom. Frederick Hayek.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

  6. #16
    AFH Guest
      
    I gotta say "Wow, Tuner." For something as deceptively simple as JB's 1911 action, there's a LOT of stuff going on under the hood! I stopped understanding how my car worked after carburetors went out of style too; thanks for the very informative update...

    Doc H.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
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    Lexington, North Carolina...or
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    re:

    Quote Originally Posted by AFH
    I gotta say "Wow, Tuner." For something as deceptively simple as JB's 1911 action, there's a LOT of stuff going on under the hood! I stopped understanding how my car worked after carburetors went out of style too; thanks for the very informative update...

    Doc H.
    Howdy Doc,

    It's been said that more has been forgotten about the gun than most of us will ever know. I'm determined to figger it all out before I die...Still workin' on it.

    It's also been referred to as "A study in complex simplicity." Very true.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    6th February 2005
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    Northern Alabama
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    It's been said that more has been forgotten about the gun than most of us will ever know.
    I know I've often said that YOU have forgotten more about the 1911 that I will ever know.
    "I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid, and ... I went ahead anyway." - Crow T. Robot
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  9. #19
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
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    Lexington, North Carolina...or
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    Forgettin'

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandersFan
    I know I've often said that YOU have forgotten more about the 1911 that I will ever know.
    puh! That ain't sayin' much. I forget what day it is about 30% of the time...

  10. #20
    Join Date
    11th July 2004
    Location
    Georgia
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    Day???????????

    When you are retired,as you and I are,who cares what day it is.

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