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Thread: Why is it bad to drop the slide without a loaded magazine?

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  1. #1
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    Why is it bad to drop the slide without a loaded magazine?

    It has be posted here that it is not good for the gun to drop the slide into battery on an empty chamber with no mag. 1911 Tuner, who seems to know a heck of a lot more than I do about the 1911 has also stated this. I've heard it's a good way to wreck a good trigger job. Could Tuner or someone else (I know it's the busy tax season for Tuner) explain to me what this does to damage the weapon or wreck the trigger job?

    I ask both because I am curious, and because I'm practicing tactical malfunction clearing techniquies, and the double feed malfunction drill involves racking the slide three times on empty. Although this is the only legitimate reason I know of to rack the slide on empty, it's a pretty good reason, and I'd like to practice with my Les Baer TRS. Obviously, I don't want to mess up the gun. So I'd like to understand the mechanics of this problem. How bad is it for the gun/trigger job and why?

    Thanks.
    Adam T.

    We're on the Road to Serfdom. Frederick Hayek.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

  2. #2
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    lug damage

    I don't know about damaging the trigger. But I have heard that it can damage the locking lugs on the slide and on the barrel.

  3. #3
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    The problem with dropping the slide on an empty chamber is that there is no round (or snap-cap. They'll work fine, too) coming out of the magazine to keep everything working just right. The design relies heavily on the presence of the cartridge.

    When you drop the slide without a round, nothing stops the parts from banging against each other. The hammer and sear go bouncing around and will begin to tear each other apart. When that happens, those carefully prepared engagement surfaces smack against each other, and your expensive trigger job is literally scraped right off the sear and hammer.

    When you rack the slide, as long as you're providing it some guidance with your off hand, you will not cause anything but normal wear, and it takes a WHOLE LOT of hand cycling to wear out a properly lubed gun. You don't need to let it forward a millimeter at a time, just give it some drag so that it doesn't slam into battery without a cartridge.

  4. #4
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    Drop

    Dropping the slide at full speed on an empty gun is bad for a number of reasons. One is that it can ruin a finely-honed sear, but not because of
    bounce, as is widely believed. While the hammer may well bounce and lose full-pressure contact with the sear, it won't likely lose full contact, and any resettling back onto the sear wouldn't amount to more than a fraction of a thousandth of an inch. The hammer overcocks and falls back to the sear during normal operation when the slide returns to battery anyway.

    The reason that it can ruin a sear angle is because, during a full-speed slide return without cartridge resistance, the trigger stands still when the gun is jerked forward, and nudges the disconnect...which causes the sear to rotate
    just enough to clear the shortened hammer hooks that usually go along with a trigger job...but not enough to clear the half-cock notch. The half-cock hits the sear and stops the hammer...and often buggers up the sear primary and/or escape angles. This is the reason for lightweight aluminum triggers
    that offer less inertial resistance to movement...and less mass/momentum
    available to bump the disconnect. This is also a reason for the modified half-cock notches often seen on match-tuned hammers. The sides are ground away, leaving only the center section to capture the sear...which doesn't affect the angles of engagement with the hooks in the event of a hammer follow.

    Very often, lighter than standard mainsprings are also used in match-grade trigger jobs...which provides less pressure in keeping the sear and hammer hooks in full engagement...and adds to the possiblility of a hammer follow to half-cock. Reduced sear spring tension also plays a role by providing less tension to keep the trigger away from the disconnect.

    The real damage in slide-dropping is to the lower barrel lugs and...to a lesser
    extent...the slidestop crosspin. Pity those tiny feet on the bottom of the lug.
    Those feet bear the brunt in bringing that 16-ounce slide to a stop under
    whatever momentum is given it by a 16-pound recoil spring. The lugs can deform toward the rear...which delays unlock and linkdown timing...moves the slide forward on the frame at about 3 times the amount of
    deformation ...throws shock stresses on the front lug and barrel junction...and puts shear stresses on the slidestop crosspin. Stresses that these parts were never intended to bear.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the replies. Just for kicks, I gave Les Baer a call. I spoke with Karen, not Les Jr. or Sr., and here's what she said:

    The tactical drill for clearing a double feed will not hurt the gun or the action job because there is no mag in the gun when you are racking the slide on the empty chamber. What WILL hurt the action job is dropping the slide on an empty magazine. She said that the extra force placed on the slide stop pin and the barrel lugs is not significant enough to damage those parts, and that dropping the slide on empty WITHOUT a mag in the gun will not hurt the action job.

    This seems to be consistent with what Tuner has posted, except that Karen doesn't think the additional force placed on the lugs and the slide stop pin are enough to worry about.

    FYI and $.02.

    Thanks again.
    Adam T.

    We're on the Road to Serfdom. Frederick Hayek.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

  6. #6
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    Karen

    Sorry. She's misinformed...but it's not the first time that someone "in the know" has been.

    Think about how the gun functions. The slide rides forward at full-speed.
    It picks up the barrel along the way...still movin' fast. The barrel cams up on the slidestop pin. When the rear curve in the lower barrel lug hits the pin, all that mass and momentum impact right there on that pin. Now...go look carefully at the lower lug feet. Slip the slidestop pin through the link and back into the curve to see just how little surface area there is to absorb the impact. Think also about the amount of leverage there is working against the front of lower barrel lug when everything comes to a sudeen stop...metal to metal...and report back.

    oorah...

  7. #7
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    Is it just the effort of stripping the next round off the magazine that prevents damage or is it the fact that something else stops the barrel's forward momentum?
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
    It only takes a second to dial 911; it could take the rest of your life for help to arrive...
    Posts are my opinion based on my experience; YMMV.

  8. #8
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    re:

    Quote Originally Posted by warmrain
    Is it just the effort of stripping the next round off the magazine that prevents damage or is it the fact that something else stops the barrel's forward momentum?
    Ultimately, the slidestop and lower lug bring it to a dead stop. The entire feeding cycle acts to bleed the slide's momentum with every separate function. By the numbers:

    1. The slide strips the round from the magazine. Resistance is provided by the actual mass of the cartridge and friction from the magazine spring
    and feed lips.

    2. The round strikes the feed ramp and deflects upward. Resistance is provided again by the cartridge mass and friction.

    3. The rim is cammed upward and under the extractor. Friction at the breechface, barrel ramp, and more spring resistance of the extractor as it opens.

    4. The bullet ogive contacts the upper chamber...still under full control via friction...and begins to break over to horizontal. Friction is obtained at three points. Breechface, top corner of the barrel ramp, and by the bullet ogive. Cartridge inertial mass is still a player, but less so than at the outset.

    5. Cartridge finishes breaking to horizontal, and finishes the chambering process. Friction against the chamber walls and inertial mass are still in effect.

    (Other factors include slide to frame rail friction. Disconnector friction against the center rail, as well as the next round's(in the magazine) friction against the center rail...and the barrel's final approach to full battery...with whatever sort of final lockup is available...tight or not-so-tight.)

    6. Wham! The lower barrel lug feet hit the slidestop crosspin and the gun is
    (hopefully) in full battery.

    Now, go back and remove the ammunition from the equation, and you can see how much resistance is lost.

    Clear as mud?

  9. #9
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    Thanks again. I think my solution will be to simply hang onto the slide through the drill, so that I am following it forward and back three times rather than drawing it back and releasing. That should slow it down at least as much as the friction that is added by chambering a round. Still, it is surprising to me that the 1911 design is sufficiently weak in these areas to be damaged by the mere racking of the slide when empty.
    Adam T.

    We're on the Road to Serfdom. Frederick Hayek.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    i
    The real damage in slide-dropping is to the lower barrel lugs and...to a lesser
    extent...the slidestop crosspin. Pity those tiny feet on the bottom of the lug.
    Those feet bear the brunt in bringing that 16-ounce slide to a stop under
    whatever momentum is given it by a 16-pound recoil spring. The lugs can deform toward the rear...which delays unlock and linkdown timing...moves the slide forward on the frame at about 3 times the amount of
    deformation ...throws shock stresses on the front lug and barrel junction...and puts shear stresses on the slidestop crosspin. Stresses that these parts were never intended to bear.
    Johnny, any idea how many "slide-dropping" cycles it would take to adversly affect a well made (no cheapie parts) 1911? Pappy
    Johnny

    I miss America
    Sent from my keyboard using hunt-n-peck...
    SCIENTIA SIT POTENTIA

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