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Thread: Hot Loads?

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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by paleojack01 View Post
    For a FMJ RN 230gr Hornady bullet, their manual shows 6.6 gr of Unique as a max load. This load is for all of their 230 gr FMJ bullets regardless of shape. They list COAL for the RN at 2.10. According to data on this site, the Hornady 230 gr RN FMJ is .007 shorter than my PD 230 gr RN FMJ. My COAL is 1.230 so I have more internal volume in the case which should reduce pressures (not considering other bullet differences like hardness).
    I just went to the Hornady web site. They do not offer ANY 230-grain bullets in .45 caliber -- not in .452" or .454" diameters.
    Correction: I finally found the Hornady 230-grain FMJ bullet. And they don't tell us the bullet length. Not helpful.

    The Alliant site also shows a jacketed gold dot 230 gr round with max load of 6.0 gr of Unique at 1.2 COAL.
    A Gold Dot isn't a FMJ bullet, it's a JHP bullet. Those generally are loaded to a shorter C.O.A.L. than FMJ bullets. C.O.A.L. affects pressure only INdirectly; what counts is seating depth. The only roughly comparable load data on the Alliant web site is the Speer bullet I mentioned, which is specified at a C.O.A.L. of 1.26".

    It surprises me that Alliant would have a higher max load for a plated bullet. It is my understanding that plated bullets should be loaded as if they were lead bullets at lower velocities.
    Your understanding is incorrect. Berry's Bullets is probably responsible for promoting this drivel, and they have now changed to advising people to use any load data for lead OR jacketed bullets of the same weight. Which is idiocy and, IMHO, bordering on promulgating dangerous misinformation.

    The bottom line is that you are using a bullet for which you have NO load data, and for which you have not calculated the seating depth for comparison against recipes for known bullets for which you can calculate the seating depth. You are flying blind. What you need to do is go back to a starting load, get access to a chronograph, and find out what your loads are actually doing. Then work up in small increments.

    For what it's worth, this issue of comparing seating depths for unknown bullets is one that plagues all reloaders. To attempt to address that information vacuum, awhuile back our member Niemi24s instituted a bullet dimension project, for the express purpose of tabulating information on many bullets in order to allow calculating comparative seating depths for unlisted bullets. The discussion thread is here:
    https://forum.m1911.org/showthread.p...ns-Bullet-Data

    The actual table of data is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=519572970

    The useful information is the lengths. Subtract the length of a .45 ACP case from the C.O.A.L. and you have the exposed bullet length. Subtract that from the total bullet length and you have the seating depth. For any recipe, you want your seating depth to be no greater than the seating depth in the recipe. If you seat deeper, you increase pressure. The Precision Delta bullet is included -- two people reported it. Their measurements don't agree, but they're close. The Speer TMJ bullet is listed. The Speer is listed as being .655" long. The Precision Delta is slightly shorter, by .005" or .009", depending on which entry you use. And our table includes the Hornady #45177, with a bullet length of .643".

    But the Alliant data for the Speer bullet called for a C.O.A.L. of 1.260". You are using a C.O.A.L. of 1.230", so you are seating .03" deeper than the Alliant recipe and the bullet is only saving you .012" -- so you are still losing .018" of case depth compared to the Alliant data. That means your pressure will be greater for the same powder charge if you use the Hormady bullet.

    But you are using a Precision Delta bullet that's longer than the Hornady, but shorter than the Speer (but not much shorter). Still higher pressure.

    Again: IMHO, you need to increase your seating depth to 1.260" (or pretty close to that, if 1.260" won't feed in your pistol), reduce your charge to the starting load, get access to a chronograph, and work up from the starting load.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Last edited by Hawkmoon; 30th August 2021 at 14:19.


  2. #12
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    Thanks for all the work you put into trying to help me. It is much appreciated.

  3. #13
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    Looks like I will have a chronograph to use fairly soon. This will give me velocity numbers for various test loads. If I use my full size 1911 for the tests, what velocities am I looking for? What is OK and what is too much? Is there a place that I can find this information?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by paleojack01 View Post
    Is there a place that I can find this information?
    Load data and specs for factory ammunition.
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  5. #15
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    Specific load data for the many off brand bullets is not often available and internet admonishments won't help.
    As Mr Mason told Mr Dixon, you have to draw the line SOMEWHERE.

    Ken Waters thought 6.5 gr Unique was about right for 230 gr FMJ at and 7.0 was merely "near maximum." But then he didn't have a PV laboratory. Book values of 6.6 or so seem usual maxima.

    Cracked frame. Just shooting an aluminum framed 1911 type is inherently abusive. Skeeter Skelton cracked a Commander frame there with something less than 5000 rounds of surplus hardball.
    My aluminum MixMaster A has held up longer without damage but it is a 9mm.
    My real Colt Commander .45 gets Major power factor loads (less than hardball) and light target loads, and is not a frequent shooter at that.

    I think your gun will last longer with loads no heavier than what is required for function, regular replacement of the recoil spring, maybe the small radius firing pin stop currently in fashion and even the rubber buffer currently out of fashion.
    Last edited by Jim Watson; 3rd September 2021 at 00:00.


  6. #16
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    Jim, thanks for your insight. I appreciate your comments.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by paleojack01 View Post
    Looks like I will have a chronograph to use fairly soon. This will give me velocity numbers for various test loads. If I use my full size 1911 for the tests, what velocities am I looking for? What is OK and what is too much? Is there a place that I can find this information?
    The original M1911 .45 caliber cartridge was specified for a 230-grain projectile to develop 830 feet-per-second when fired through a 5" barrel.

    Keep in mind that velocity is not the sole determiner of a "hot" load. Some powders burn faster than others. Very fast powders will generate a much higher peak pressure than a slower powder, while achieving the same muzzle velocity with the same weight bullet.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  8. #18
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    Thanks again for this additional information.

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