Welcome to M1911.ORG
The M1911 Pistols Organization Forums Site


John needs your help
Please read this message.


Sponsors Panel
If you intend to buy something from the companies advertising above, or near the bottom of our pages, please use their banners in our sites. Whatever you buy from them, using those banners, gives us a small commission, which helps us keep these sites alive. You still pay the normal price, our commission comes from their profit, so you have nothing to lose, while we have something to gain. Your help is appreciated.
If you want to become a sponsor and see your banner in the above panel, click here to contact us.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24

Thread: Shrimp of a ‘Crimp’ and the effects ,,,,,

THREAD CLOSED
This is an old thread. You can't post a reply in it. It is left here for historical reasons.Why don't you create a new thread instead?
  1. #11
    Join Date
    25th September 2006
    Location
    South of Lake Superior
    Posts
    14,085
    Posts liked by others
    127
    A late-breaking thought: Unless your friend having the kabooms is new to reloading or has recently changed his reloading procedures, what are the chances the kabooms were basically caused by an over charge or double charge of powder (with just some of the overpressure due to the setback)?

    P.S.: When using the 1911 as an impact tester, the following gizmo is installed after removing the firing pin to allow safe tests of loaded ammunition. Maximum slide speed to battery is obtained by slingshotting while rapidly moving the shooting hand forward and simultaneously rapidly moving the other hand back to quickly move the slide aft from slide lock so it bounces forward from the fully recoiled position. The little eye bolt reduces wear and tear on the fingers.
    P(11)4180004a Loaded Mag Issue, Post 16.JPG
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 24th May 2021 at 13:01.


  2. #12
    Join Date
    25th September 2006
    Location
    South of Lake Superior
    Posts
    14,085
    Posts liked by others
    127
    The only scientific data I've ever seen published regarding bullet setback and chamber pressure is this from Speer:
    357 Sig Pressure Vs. Setbacka New To Reloading 38 Super, Post 28.jpg
    And the folks at Speer told me back in 2010 it's the only cartridge they'd ever tested in this manner.
    But the 357 SIG isn't the 45 Auto cartridge, so this may not mean anything.
    Be nice to have an instrumented 45 Auto test barrel, eh?
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 25th May 2021 at 15:01.


  3. #13
    Join Date
    13th April 2011
    Posts
    50
    Posts liked by others
    13
    Niemi, with all due respect I'll make one last post re our difference of opinion.

    I just talked to a CCI specialist and he informed me they do use a taper crimp on the 45acp ammo. The particulars are proprietary and he would say no more except that the ammo has to meet 'push/pull' specs.

    Thus, I will continue to load with a taper crimp, not into the bullet, as I have done for thousands and thousands of rounds.

    Best

  4. #14
    Join Date
    2nd June 2004
    Location
    Terra
    Posts
    22,286
    Posts liked by others
    906
    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s View Post
    The only scientific data I've ever seen published regarding bullet setback and chamber pressure is this from Speer:
    357 Sig Pressure Vs. Setbacka New To Reloading 38 Super, Post 28.jpg
    And the folks at Speer told me back in 2010 it's the only cartridge they'd ever tested in this manner.
    But the 357 SIG isn't the 45 Auto cartridge, so this may not mean anything.
    Be nice to have an instrumented 45 Auto test barrel, eh?
    You could model it, using Quickload, or the new (free) kid on the block, Gordon's Reloading Tool:

    https://grtools.de/doku.php

    Using computer modeling would also allow comparing the effects of setback with faster or slower powders.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  5. #15
    Join Date
    25th September 2006
    Location
    South of Lake Superior
    Posts
    14,085
    Posts liked by others
    127
    Quote Originally Posted by 1944P View Post
    I just talked to a CCI specialist and he informed me they do use a taper crimp on the 45acp ammo. The particulars are proprietary and he would say no more except that the ammo has to meet 'push/pull' specs.
    That makes sense as there are only three choices:

    • Use a roll crimp die (no good as CCI's 45Auto bullets have no crimping groove)
    • Bell the case mouth juust barely enough so seating the bullet stretches out the case behind the bell and eliminate the residual bell or case mouth flare (not likely in a commercial facility where the risk of crinkling the case mouth must be avoided)
    • Use a taper crimp die just like we do (well, not me as I use a Lee CFC die with the lower carbide sizing ring removed)
    Thus, I will continue to load with a taper crimp, not into the bullet, as I have done for thousands and thousands of rounds.
    Not into the bullet? Good! I was under the impression you were using that Bullseye shooters method of crimping as much as 0.0015" beyond simply deflaring.

    Sorry for any misunderstanding.

    Back in Post #7 when saying "For maximum case grip and minimum setback with any type of bullet, the ideal is to flare the case mouth juuust enough so (1) the bullet can be seated without catching and wrinkling the case mouth and (2) the remaining case mouth flare, if any, allows the cartridge to be reliably fed (SAAMI max is 0.473" diameter)." I should have called it an impractical ideal for the handloader because after trying it for a while I found it made for very tedious lead bullet seating on a single stage press. There was virtually no margin for error when placing the bullet atop the case before seating it.

    Sorry if you thought I was recommending that as a standard procedure. It does, however, result in maximum case grip on the bullet (round is complete just after seating, with no fiddling needed with the case mouth and a finished case mouth OD of 0.473" or less). FWIW, for reloading thin-walled brass I even got a special 0.453" ID die for my Lyman sizer/lubricator. The bigger bullet helps some in compensating for the thinner case wall and thus larger case ID after resizing the case.

    Q: Does your shooting buddy having the kaboom use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die?
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  6. #16
    Join Date
    25th September 2006
    Location
    South of Lake Superior
    Posts
    14,085
    Posts liked by others
    127
    IMHO, terminology is the big bugaboo when it comes to crimping/de-flaring. Here's something from Speer:
    Speer Q#16c Who Are They, Post 1.jpg
    So a neophyte buys a set of dies and one is called (in one way or another) a crimp die. Then Speer says "Do not apply a crimp. . ."

    Say WHAAAT?????
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  7. #17
    Join Date
    20th October 2004
    Posts
    38
    Posts liked by others
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by 1944P View Post
    Niemi, with all due respect I'll make one last post re our difference of opinion.

    I just talked to a CCI specialist and he informed me they do use a taper crimp on the 45acp ammo. The particulars are proprietary and he would say no more except that the ammo has to meet 'push/pull' specs.

    Thus, I will continue to load with a taper crimp, not into the bullet, as I have done for thousands and thousands of rounds.

    Best
    That's all well and good, but some bullets are fatter than others, and some brass is thinner than others. It's not unreasonable to expect that you might have to readjust your setup any time you switch components. This is one of the reasons for sorting your brass by headstamp. For some brass, no standard sizing die will form it small enough to get a decent grip on smaller bullets, whereas brass with thicker walls will take those same bullets just fine. I haven't needed one yet, but I know people with more reloading experience than mine who advocate keeping an under-sized sizing die on hand for dealing with thin-wall brass and/or small bullets.
    For the M1911.ORG Team,
    The Rule Keeper

  8. #18
    Join Date
    25th September 2006
    Location
    South of Lake Superior
    Posts
    14,085
    Posts liked by others
    127
    Quote Originally Posted by The Rule Keeper View Post
    . . .I know people with more reloading experience than mine who advocate keeping an under-sized sizing die on hand for dealing with thin-wall brass and/or small bullets.
    Thanks for jogging my memory. I've also got a Lee "U" die whose carbide case sizing ring measures about 0.0027" smaller than my new RCBS case resizing die. It helps a lot with old R · P brass that's really, really thin.

    So with an undersized (0.4622" ID) case resizing die, a neck expanding/flaring die honed down about 0.0015" to 0.4480" and a bullet sizing die that's 0.001" oversized for making 0.453" lead SWC's thin-walled brass can be reloaded that has a fairly good case grip on the bullet. Sure, a lot of dinking around, but I had too much of that thin R · P brass to just throw it away.
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  9. #19
    Join Date
    2nd June 2004
    Location
    Terra
    Posts
    22,286
    Posts liked by others
    906
    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s View Post
    IMHO, terminology is the big bugaboo when it comes to crimping/de-flaring. Here's something from Speer:
    Speer Q#16c Who Are They, Post 1.jpg
    So a neophyte buys a set of dies and one is called (in one way or another) a crimp die. Then Speer says "Do not apply a crimp. . ."
    The only company I know of that sells dies called "Factory Crimp Die" is Lee. And it's important to understand what the Lee Factory Crimp Dies are, because there are two different types.

    All of them have a carbide sizing ring, which is intended to ensure that the rounds will chamber. But that sizing ring doesn't perform any crimping. For crimping, the FCDs for revolvers apply a roll crimp, which is what you want for a revolver and for bullets that have a crimping groove for the case mouth to roll into. The FCDs for semi-auto cartridges are set up to apply a taper crimp and, just as with any other taper crimp die, it should be adjusted so that it just removes the flare from the case mouth.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  10. #20
    Join Date
    17th June 2019
    Posts
    10
    Posts liked by others
    2
    Good information in this thread, I also like the way the topic progressed in terms of attitude/respect. Refreshing and a nice deviation from the more usual mud (or worse) throwing one sometimes sees.

    I can only add my own modest experiences (5-10,000 rounds) to concur.

    At my club, these are some points I ask new reloaders to consider:

    * bullets without a crimp groove should not be crimped
    * 'de-flared' is a much better term for the state of the case mouth on a completed round
    * it's especially important with plated bullets
    * wet tumbling helps to thoroughly clean and degrease the inside case walls for maximum bullet grip
    * discard or set aside brass that's too thin for your usual resizing die (I have a lot of 'MRP' cases that are waiting for the day I get an undersized die - if ever)
    * sort by headstamp

    Happy reloading!

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Sponsors Panel
If you intend to buy something from Brownells, please use their banners above. Whatever you buy from them, gives us a small commission, which helps us keep these sites alive. You still pay the normal price, our commission comes from their profit, so you have nothing to lose, while we have something to gain. Your help is appreciated.
If you want to become a sponsor and see your banner in the above panel, click here to contact us.

Non-gun-related supporters.
Thank you for visiting our supporters.