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Thread: Winchester .45 FMJ

  1. #11
    Join Date
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    I also shoot a lot of lead round nose bullets, when I first started reloading and asking questions at this site, it was you Niemi who recommended I try lead bullets. Again, my issue has been availability in my area. I shoot Hornady lead round nose and Hunter's Supply lead round nose. As per Hunter's Supply's recommended load, I use 4.0 grains of Titegroup. It cycles my pistol fine and has light recoil. Sometimes I load a batch of copper jacketed bullets because I just get tired of the work getting the lead fouling out of the barrel.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    25th September 2006
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    How do the measured ODs of your store-bought lead bullets compare to the groove diameter of your barrel?

    That asked as I'm fairly well convinced lead fouling is the result of what some call "gas cutting" where hot combustion gasses bypass (blow by) the bullet and remove/erode lead from the bullet to be deposited in the bore, mostly in the grooves. Such erosion is clearly visible here:
    IMG_1562d Bullet Obturation In The 45 Auto M1911, Post 28.JPG
    But as I cast and size most of my own bullets, I have total control over the final bullet OD. That's because a special 0.453" ID die for my lubri-sizer yields bullets a tiny bit bigger than Petunias groove diameter and I get no leading at all. I don't know of any commercial cast lead bullet supplier that provides 0.453" bullets suitable for reloading the 45 auto.
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Likes (2) :
    JD11 (21st October 2020), Rick McC. (21st October 2020)


  3. #13
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    No Niemi, I have not compared my bullets diameter to my barrels diameter. For what it is worth, the Hunter's Supply 230 grain .45 LRN has a diameter varying between .4525 to .4530. I do not have any unloaded Hornady LRN's on hand to measure. Just for information, my barrel has about 12,500 rounds thru it and I load my rounds on the light end...4.0 Titegroup with the Hunter's Supply and 5.3 if I use Unique.

  4. #14
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    This shows the difference in blow-by around a 0.4505"D bullet (left) and a 0.4520"D bullet (right) propelled only by a primer:

    Blow-By.JPG
    These bullets barely made it all the way into the rifling and were pushed out by reversing their initial direction (pushed from the muzzle and out the chamber end) so some of those residues may be from the bullets retracing their paths. But this makes it easy to see where all that fire and brimstone comes from with jacketed and plated bullets.

    Food for thought: From what I can see on the Hornady website, their 45 Cal lead bullets are not cast but swaged. Had bad leading with some Speer swaged lead bullets once upon a time and discovered that not only were they very, very soft they were so soft they were being swaged down by around 0.001" just from the seating process! So when loaded and fired, they were smaller than they started out being and with the increased blow-by they provided some spectacular lead deposits! One of those bullets is shown in Post #12.

    Maybe your swaged Hornadys were also too soft, were made smaller during seating and resulted in serious leading for you? Shame you've got none left as I'd love to get my hands on a couple and test their hardness.
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  5. #15
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    If I mange to get my hands on some, maybe I can send a couple to you. I have not seen hide nor hair of them in these parts for quite some time. The bulk of the leading that I get and the hardest to remove is where they first contact the rifling. I get some leading out towards the muzzle but it is light and easily removed. I will have to compare and see which leave the most lead deposits, Hunter's Supply or Hornady. Also, when I get a chance in the next day or so I will measure the diameter of my barrel. I may be wrong but I don't think the barrel has excessive wear, the rifling seems sharp and clear and I have not noticed any drop in accuracy. I have always removed any deposits...lead, copper etc after each range session. I know that leaving the barrel fouled can increase wear.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    2nd October 2006
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    Weeki Wachee, Fl
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    The only swaged Hornady bullets I’ve used were round ball from back in my early muzzleloading days, before I started casting my own rifle balls. No problem with those as patched round ball is supposed to be soft lead. But, I don’t believe that the harder alloys needed for use in many smokeless powder cartridges would swage well.
    "Sights are for the unenlightened."

    Rick

    IDPA Certified Safety Officer

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45s r best View Post
    If I mange to get my hands on some, maybe I can send a couple to you.
    That would be great, thank you!
    The bulk of the leading that I get and the hardest to remove is where they first contact the rifling.
    I suspect that's the natural place for most leading to occur. The sequence of events might be:

    • Main powder charge ignites and pressure builds rapidly
    • Case expands to fill chamber leaving a small gap between the bullet and case and at the same time...
    • The bullet begins to move forward
    • All this time hot propellant gasses leak forward between the bullet and expanded case and down the barrel until...
    • The bullet has moved forward enough for its body to make contact with the barrel grooves just forward of the freebore and...
    • If the bullet OD is equal to or larger than the groove diameter the blow-by path becomes sealed by the bullet filling the grooves in the barrel
    Barrel Throata Throat In SIG 1911 Scorpion Short, Post 3.jpg
    As shown above, a groove size bullet needs to travel about 0.022" before it seals off the blow-by path. But if the bullet is less than than groove size the blow-by patch never gets sealed off because in a 1911 pressure is too low to cause the bullet to obdurate and fill the grooves.

    Have no idea how long it takes the bullet to move 0.022" but it certainly doesn't occur instantaneously.
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 21st October 2020 at 23:11.


  8. #18
    Join Date
    16th May 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkmoon View Post
    The Hodgdon web site does not provide sany load data for a 230-grain FMJ projectile. They list data for a flat-nose projectile. To use that data, you will need to calculate seating depth and adjust the charge and C.O.A.L. accordingly.
    Actually they do, 4.2gr - 5.3gr of 231 or HP38.

    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
    MFWIC
    DILLIGAF
    Stercus Accidit
    WTFDTSG

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHP9 View Post
    Actually they do, 4.2gr - 5.3gr of 231 or HP38.

    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
    I already covered that. When most people say (or write) "FMJ" they are referring to a jacketed bullet with a round nose. That's what the OP has. The bullet you found on the Hodgdon web site is the same one I found, and that I addressed in posts #7 and #9. It is a jacketed bullet, but it's flat point. This means it will require some additional research and calculations regarding seating depth if you want to try to use that recipe for a round nose projectile.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Likes (1) :
    Rick McC. (28th October 2020)


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