Questions about P10

[Hawkmoon]

It's an impressive effort, but I found it to be rather poorly organized. And I share Spyros' concerns about that date of the move to the U.S. According to the Wikipedia article, the North Carolina move was just getting started (on paper) in 2009.

[Spyros]

What I can tell you with any confidence is that I own a P18.9 (PX18.9S, specifically), definitely made in 2009 (IIRC George Wedge looked it up for me, I bought it early in 2010), definitely with a "Ft. Lauderdale FL" address and "MADE IN CANADA" under the dust cover. Its serial is P2055xx, which, according to that list, puts it in the NC range. Well, it's not.

There were some Pineville NC guns on display in the 2011 SHOT show, along with a few older Canadian pistols. There were A LOT of discussions during the show about the new factory, and the fact that they lost something like two years with various issues in setting everything up, staffing the factory AND making sure production was up to standard. Guns kept rolling in from Canada until all problems were sorted out.

That's the problem: people assume there's a cut-off point, before which all guns were Canadian, being US-made after that. It wasn't that simple. It's probably safe to assume that everything from 2011 onwards is from NC, but all bets are off before that.

Also, remember that Para was still making different models in batches. At that time (2009 onwards) they no longer listed the bazillion different models they had listed the previous decade, but they still made X model in January, Y model in February and Z in March. That probably had a significant effect on their production "overlap", as the move to the new factory progressed.

I edited my previous post to make the above distinction more clear.

There was also a separate booth in the 2011 SHOT show for a Canadian company called Alpha Castings, that made the raw castings for the frames of the doublestacks for these guns (among many other interesting things) even AFTER the move to NC, but that's another story...

Those nice folks could get a bit annoyed if you made the mistake of calling the company "Para-Ordnance"...

[danriverboy]

Hawkmoon, Spyros

In my first post I was just trying to help the OP know when his pistol was made. I guess that was my mistake—I won’t do that again.

Both of you have been critical of the database that I mentioned. Fine. Nothing is perfect. But the compiler(s) of that database did a great job getting information from Para Ordnance owners such as me over a 6 or 7 year period. Repeat, a great job!!!! Show me another database--neither of you have any information. Too bad Para Ordnance, ParaUSA, Remington or some other owner, company, etc. can't provide information.

I'm done with this thread. And maybe with this Forum.

[Norton]

I would hate to see you go.
Your efforts to provide additional information is appreciated by myself and I'm sure others.
The "other" forum is less formal but good info is good info.
It's a bad thing to shoot the messenger...

[Spyros]

Well I don't see where the problem is. I simply pointed out that:

a) I definitely own a ParaUSA pistol that doesn't agree with the list, at it now stands. See below.
b) I gave a little bit of background, which I had simply as someone visiting Para at SHOT around that changeover, along with information from other forum editors who have visited Para's factory (the old one).
c) Based on A and B, I stated that the list isn't perfect, and that B in particular explains why it can't be perfect: because there doesn't appear to be a definitive serial number separating production between the two factories.

Hopefully such information might be useful to someone wishing to improve that list. Good luck to any and all involved. Also, please note my signature.

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[Greywolf]

Hawkmoon, Spyros

In my first post I was just trying to help the OP know when his pistol was made. I guess that was my mistake—I won’t do that again.

Both of you have been critical of the database that I mentioned. Fine. Nothing is perfect. But the compiler(s) of that database did a great job getting information from Para Ordnance owners such as me over a 6 or 7 year period. Repeat, a great job!!!! Show me another database--neither of you have any information. Too bad Para Ordnance, ParaUSA, Remington or some other owner, company, etc. can't provide information.

I'm done with this thread. And maybe with this Forum.

Trying to help another member is never a mistake. That said … as a long-time Para-Ordnance owner I appreciate the effort that seems to have gone into compiling that list. And it should be recognized that much of the information in that list came from members of this site, until the compiler of the list departed from here. However, one should never be offended by constructive criticism. The list is hardly a "database." It's just a list. It's organized the way the person who compiled it decided to organize it but, as a numbers wonk, I have to agree that this choice leaves much to be desired. For comparison, I look at the dates and serial number look-ups I have in a book of Colt serial numbers and production dates, as well as the Colt production date data on The Sight (http://sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm).

It strikes me that Spyros was trying to help clarify the information available. Remember, he and John were at the SHOT Show and spoke with the people from Para. In 2009 Para was still owned and run by Thanos Polyzos (sp?), who is Greek. John knew Thanos personally (as he had known Ted Szabo personally). If the people who had "boots on the ground" at the time say there is no clear cut-off between Canadian production and U.S. production, IMHO you can take that to the bank. If that conflicts with what someone else -- someone who did not personally know the players and follow Para-Ordnance closely at the time -- has deduced several years later on the basis of a small subset of data, I think it only makes sense to pay attention to what the people who were there know.

Other, possibly anecdotal, evidence: I know thanks to information derived from posts on this forum that as of August of 2009 the Para repair center was still in Sevierville, TN. You can draw from that whatever conclusions you wish. To me, that strongly suggests that the U.S. operation in North Carolina was not up and running at that time. It may have been functioning in some sort of start-up mode, but it wasn't running full steam. Once the U.S. operation in North Carolina was running, they closed down the Sevierville repair center (which I believe was operated by a subcontractor) and brought warranty service in-house in North Carolina.

From what I was able to reconstruct from external data (such as BATFE records that are available on-line), at their height Para-Ordnance was producing around 40,000 pistols per year. That was on a par with Kimber, and far exceeded what Colt was producing. That's a lot of guns -- 3,333 per month, or 769 guns per week. They had to keep records of when all those guns were made and, probably, where they were shipped. I have no doubt that those records were inherited by Remington when they took over ParaUSA. It's a shame that Remington won't make basic information available to the customer base they basically inherited when they purchased ParaUSA.

I applaud the effort to compile this list. I would also like to thank Spyros for adding to our knowledge base about the history of Para-Ordnance / ParaUSA.

[Greywolf]

Para owners UNITE!

Let's try to fill out that database. If any of you still have the envelope with the fired case, please post your pistol's serial number | model name ("Warthog," "LTC," "Tac-Four," etc.) | the date on the envelope with the fired case | the Para product code (such as "PX1345SE") | country of manufacture (as shown on the pistol).

Hopefully, someone here will pick up the ball and run with it, since the two people who were maintaining the list at various periods have both dropped out of the picture.

[1Sourdough]

I tried to post this a few minutes ago but the system returned a message I was not signed in. That's odd since just before I read and replied to a PM. But I copied the text, signed in, and will try again. Here's hoping it does not post twice.

I have another question about the P10 I think I am buying... I mailed the payment on June 12, and if I weren't personally involved, the Tracking History would be downright amusing! The clerk warned me when accepting the parcel the Postal Service computer did not show the address as valid. On the 23rd the history changed from showing the Jersey City and White Plains distribution centers were playing ping-pong with it to an announcement that the Postal Service had discovered they had a problem with delivery. Nothing has changed since then, though the gun shop owner and I have both contacted USPS with his contact information hoping maybe someone will call and learn how to deliver the money order. GRRR!

So here's the question:
I downloaded a copy of the 2002 P Series user manual. Stripping is covered for P18 to P12 but the is excluded. The P12 appears to have a two piece recoil spring guide, and I am guessing the P10 is similar. Is that so?

In the stripping instructions one picture shows the P12 plug, and it appears to have a tab on its inner end. My Officer's ACP has a tab like that but it also has a screw slot on its front so the plug may be turned to position the tab to allow the plug to be removed. How does that relate to the P Series?

A couple weeks ago I was shown a public range about 40 miles from home, and it's great to have a placed to shoot for the first time in quite awhile. Maybe I will even begin reloading again pretty soon!

[Hawkmoon]

I was going to give you the link to the schematic on Brownells' web site ... but I won't because it's wrong. They show a conventional recoil spring on a full-length guide rod -- that's not what the P10 has. The P10 uses an encapsulated, dual spring recoil assembly similar to what I believe is used on the Colt Defender.

Here it is:

P10_Stripped_1024.jpg

[1Sourdough]

In a 'Different Strokes' sort of way it resembles the Officers ACP, which I believe is really close to the Defender. The barrel bushing isn't visible in the picture, does it not get removed from the slide during disassembly? It appears after the slide stop pin is removed, the plug is released somehow, and the slide moved forward like any 1911. Then the guide rod and spring assembly may be removed when access to the underside of the barrel is gained. Is the plug removed out the front like a full size 1911, or does it come out to the rear after the springs and barrel are withdrawn?

The pictures I have seen of the slide locked to the rear look like the guide rod has a large round head at its front, and the appearance of the plug in this picture surprised me.