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Thread: Seeking help for a problem with lead fouling in the barrel

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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuyModesto View Post
    Pyrenean, Your question about my crimp leaves me puzzled. Is there a way to measure a tapered crimp? It seems like there's something new to be learned at every step of the way.
    My ideal is to not swage the outer diameter of the projectile while removing case flare.
    I usually end up with a .472 - .473 OD at the case mouth. Which is my only 'crimp" measurement.
    Niemi24s is correct, measuring the case mouth isn't easy and variances in bullet OD and case wall thickness don't
    make measurements all that dependable.

    Your pictures do not suggest you are squishing the bullet very much but a pulled projectile measurement might be
    handy.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s View Post
    Interesting. Leading & keyholing both point to bullets with too small a diameter - especially as it happens in multiple 1911's. But no Lee CFC die used to reduce the bullet OD. Crimp looks good (just enough to straighten out the case mouth) and I can see the case bulge caused by the bullet body (sign that the case does have a good grip on the bullet). Powder charge is reasonable. Hmmm......

    Pull a bullet from one of your loaded rounds and tell us what its diameter is (high and low of 3 to 5 measurements in different location).
    niemi24s, Here's what I found.

    I pulled 10 slugs from 10 cases and measured bullet diameter:
    .450 - 4 times
    .451 - 3 times
    .452 - 2 times
    .453 - 1 time
    i sold all my handguns. . . . . . . . . . except for the 1911 style pistols in .45 ACP.

  3. #13
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    Do the .450 bullets show signs of being compressed by the case?

  4. #14
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    Pyrenean's post got me to thinking . . .

    The SAAMI specification for the 45 Auto (ACP) barrel groove diameter is 0.450 + 0.004 inch, so I suspect the leading is due to blow-by and gas cutting of the 0.450" dia. bullets - or any of the bullets smaller than the groove diameter. Here's what a too-small bullet that's been gas cut looks like:

    IMG_1562d Bullet Obturation In The 45 Auto M1911, Post 28.JPG

    But I'm at a loss to figure out how a substantial number of your 0.452" OD bullets can end up being 0.002" smaller after being loaded and then pulled. The advertised hardness of your bullets (HBN 16 to 17) is sufficient to prevent being squished down in diameter just by the bullet seating process. You don't use a Lee CFC die which can significantly reduce the OD of cast lead bullets seated in cases with thick walls.

    I am, however, totally unfamiliar with the Hornady Custom seating/crimping die. So it may be possible for this die to also swage down a seated bullet if not properly adjusted. And if not properly adjusted and is swaging down the seated bullet, it should take considerable effort to seat and "crimp" the bullet. Find out by trying this:

    • Seat a bullet to the normal depth but without crimping by covering the bottom of the seat/crimp die with a piece of sturdy metal or thin hardwood
    • Measure the case OD of the round down by the base of the bullet and away from any residual crimp.
    • Record this OD
    • Take this same round and run it up into the seat/crimp die as you had normally been doing

    Q: Did it take more than a little bit of effort on the press handle to get this round up into the die?

    • Re-measure the OD as before
    • If this second OD is any less than the first OD, the seat/crimp die is not properly adjusted
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 24th January 2020 at 09:31.


  5. #15
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    Finally took a closer look at the enlargement of your image and saw what seems to be a lot of bullet metal plowed up ahead of the case mouths
    MM Bullets.jpg
    a little bit is normal when seating and crimping in the same operation, but yours looks like too much. For cast or plated lead bullets, the proper amount of case mouth flare is one that:

    • lets a bullet sit a little down into the case mouth when first positioned and do so with no tendency to tip
    • gives the just flared case mouth and OD of about 0.480" or more.

    Maybe some of those 0.452" OD bullets got scraped down to 0.450" OD during seating?
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 24th January 2020 at 10:26.


  6. #16
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    niemi24s What you state is exactly what I began to suspect upon pulling the 10 slugs from the loaded rounds. Perhaps I should adjust the case mouth expander die to increase the opening a bit. I use a Lyman "M" die for that task. I'm going to expand some cases with the current settings and try to take measurements first. Thanks much for your help.
    i sold all my handguns. . . . . . . . . . except for the 1911 style pistols in .45 ACP.

  7. #17
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    Q: Do you chamfer the insides of your case mouths?
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  8. #18
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    One other thing that I had noticed in your pictures was the deformation ring about half way down the bullet nose. This ring is, I think, caused by contact with the seating plug in the seat/crimp die. If this is the only contact point between the two this may possibly be part of the problem. That's because such contact is not well-suited to insure perfect alignment of the bullets axis and the axis of the case as it cannot correct any initial misalignment.

    In addition, examination of the bullet on the SNS website . . .
    SNS 200 Gn LSWC.jpg
    . . .seems to show that the nose of the bullet has a slight radius. If so, this means the nose is not an ideal contact point for the seating plug in the die either as it can allow bullet misalignment with the case. For this particular bullet, I think the ideal contact point for the seating plug is the horizontal (as shown) step at the shoulder between the bullet nose and bullet body. Contact here by the seating plug can correct any initial misalignment before the bullet gets very far into the case.

    Q: Does your seat/crimp die have another seating nose plug that allows contact at the flat shoulder area shown above?
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 25th January 2020 at 16:10.


  9. #19
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    niemi24s You raise a point I have overlooked. Yes, I have seen the ring, and believe its from the seating plug. That's the only one that came with this die. I'll check with the manufacturer on that point. Thank you for what you shared about the radius on the bullet nose and how incorrect seating is most likely resulting.

    I changed the setting already on the expander die to open the case mouth more. I am grateful for that suggestion. Your help on this has been amazing.
    i sold all my handguns. . . . . . . . . . except for the 1911 style pistols in .45 ACP.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuyModesto View Post
    Your help on this has been amazing.
    niemi24s is The Man!

    If you're using Dillon dies here's a handy accessory that allows you to seat the bullets through contact with the shoulder instead of the nose: http://uniquetek.com/product/T1561

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