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Thread: 9mm or 40 in Shorter Pistol

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  1. #1
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    9mm or 40 in Shorter Pistol

    Ive heard the argument that the 9mm length could reduce the reliability of the platform. I've also heard the argument that shorter pistols reduce the reliability due to space restrictions in the design.
    Is it possible that 9mm or 40 could actually improve the reliability of shorter pistols due to the shorter OAL of the cartridge providing slightly more time and space?

  2. #2
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    People argue a lot of things. I've read some of the same viewpoints that you mention.

    My personal experience regarding 9mm in a 1968 Colt LW Commander (4.25"), in a Springfield EMP (3"), and in a Caspian Arms government size (5") prove to me that the caliber is reliable in pretty much any format if, IF, the pistol is appropriately made. And, in a Sig Compact with a 3.3" barrel, the 45 can be extremely reliable--see my recent post in the Sig Sauer subforum. However, a similar sized "unnamed" brand 45 that I bought a few years ago could never chamber or eject more than 75% of the rounds in a magazine even after multiple gunsmith visits, different ejectors and extractors, springs, etc, etc--I have a weird sense of duty to my fellow man/shooter and I have not traded it for something else; it's in my gunroom trash bin awaiting its day of disposal.

    BTW, I own several 9mm Hi Powers and they are 99.99% reliable. A great pistol mated with what has in the past few years become an excellent self defense caliber.

    Regarding 40 cal, I have three Hi Powers and two government size pistols for this caliber. Again, excellent performance. And I understand that the EMP in 40 cal is excellent, although I have no personal experience with this pistol in this caliber.
    Last edited by danriverboy; 26th May 2019 at 09:02. Reason: 40 cal addition


  3. #3
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    I'm no expert, but I have a strong suspicion that the rumors about the 1911's reliability (or lack thereof) in 9mm and other calibers beyond .45 Auto, are probably more to do with certain parts not being sufficiently different from .45-specific parts. Extractors and ejectors come to mind. Sometimes even slidestops. I think such parts are probably a bigger cause for reliability issues than anything else.

    Springfield modified the EMP series of guns to be a bit shorter through the magazine and the rear of the slide, to take advantage of the smaller caliber. We once had a fierce debate about whether they did it for reliability or just to make the frames better for folks with small hands. Well, Springfield made (and AFAIK still makes) full-size 9mm 1911s, none of which follow that pattern, so apparently they're not worried about reliability in such guns. Hmm.

    I have a 5" 1911 DOUBLESTACK in 9mm (ParaUSA P18.9)... so, not a short gun, but different from normal 1911 spec in a number of ways. It's as reliable as an anvil, in addition to being nearly as heavy as one.
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  4. #4
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    The Springfield EMP pistols are shortened in length, by essentially taking a 1/8" wide slice out of the action, up through the magazine well. So it's really unfair to compare the EMPs with any other 1911 in 9mm or .40 S&W, because all the others use a full, unmodified 1911 action.

    That said, the EMP was not designed with an aim of increasing reliability of either 9mm or .40 S&W in short-barrel 1911s. The EMP was first announced, and a prototype pistol was circulated to all the gun magazines, in ... .45 GAP. Right .. the EMP was intended to chamber the .45 GAP in a 1911 designed around that cartridge. So it's probably somewhet accurate to suggest that the EMP was created to reduce the size of the grip for smaller hands.

    As far as I know, Springfield never sold any EMPs in .45 GAP. After that single prototype pistol had made the rounds of the magazines, nothing was heard of the EMP for quite some time. I remember reading the reviews and thinking that it made little sense to build a 1911 around the .45 GAP cartridge, since the .45 GAP cartridge was designed to mimic the performance of .45 ACP in a double stack pistol that wasn't too big for women and men with small hands to hold. But the 1911 isn't a single stack, and very few people find the 1911 to be too large to hold. My opinion at the time, which I think was echoed by several of the reviewers, was that the EMP in .45 GAP was an answer to a problem that didn't exist, but that it would make a dandy little 9mm pistol.

    Apparently Springfield Armory took that to heart, because when the EMP was finally brought to market, it was chambered in 9mm rather than .45 GAP.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  5. #5
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    Springfield made one in .45 GAP too? I thought only Para-Ordnance did that. IIRC one of our e-zine reviewers went to their facility in Canada, and saw a .45 GAP prototype, also shortened through the magwell, several months before Springfield came out with theirs...
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  6. #6
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    I bought a Ruger 9mm 1911 a couple of years ago and it is a joy to shoot. Low recoil and super accurate.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyros View Post
    Springfield made one in .45 GAP too? I thought only Para-Ordnance did that. IIRC one of our e-zine reviewers went to their facility in Canada, and saw a .45 GAP prototype, also shortened through the magwell, several months before Springfield came out with theirs...
    Yes, Springfield made ONE (as far as I know) in .45 GAP. As I wrote, when the EMP was first announced, and much ballyhooed in all the printed gun magazines, the first prototype was in .45 GAP. Springfield didn't even mention 9mm or .40 S&W. It was reviewers who basically said, ".45 GAP? Yawn. But it looks like a natural for 9mm."

    It took a bit of searching, but I finally found an early review. One of my searches led to a discussion on some other forum in which a guy who claims to be "in the know" said there were originally three prototypes made. That's the first time I have ever seen any mention of more than one prototype but, considering how many magazines came out with reviews at around the same time, three makes sense. The review I found is from Shooting Times magazine. It's dated 2011, which seems odd because John published a review of the 9mm EMP in the Fall of 2006, and that was followed by a review of the Para .45 GAP pistol in the Spring of 2007. Why Shooting Times thought the .45 GAP version of Springfield's little pistol (which was apparently not called the "EMP" in the .45 GAP prototype) is a mystery. But, for whatever it's worth, here's the link I found:

    https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...r_030306/99284
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Last edited by Hawkmoon; 1st June 2019 at 13:13.


  8. #8
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    It's also worth commenting that the EMP used a full-length grip. It was shortened fore-to-aft, but not vertically. I took the Shooting Times photo and set it up next to John's e-zine photo of the Para Slim Hawg, scaled to the same 3" barrel length. (Both are 3" pistols, I just scaled the SlimHawg photo to match the scale of the EMP photo.)

    SlimHawg-EMP_Comparison.JPG
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  9. #9
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    By 'full-length grip' I assume you mean relative to an Officer's ACP grip? We know Para had some uber-short grip lengths, so I guess this is one of them. But the Springfield's grip 'looks' to me like an Officer's length grip.
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

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