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Thread: Cocked and locked or not?

  1. #31
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Anybody who has done much shooting will have learnt that there is a continuum of means of putting bullets on target. It isn't all one way or the other.
    I was referring to the Fairbairn - Applegate approach which is one handed, gunfighter crouch, point shoulder shooting for most any occasion.
    I agree. One of my favorite skills is the zipper; scoop draw and shot to the abdomen from 1/2 hip, extending “out and up” to a 3/4 hip shot to COM, continuing to another COM shot from point shoulder, finishing with a forth shot, pistol extended high enough to see the sights (if one cares to use them) to the head.

    End result: four shots on a BG in the time it’ll take a FSP trained shooter to draw, extend, and take a first sighted shot.
    "Sights are for the unenlightened."

    Rick

    IDPA Certified Safety Officer

  2. #32
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    Somewhere I read as follows:

    "That is a myth. Cocked and locked carry, is just some sort of an unintended bonus feature of the design. Originally the M1911 was often carried in condition 2 or 3. No COLT manual, or Army field manual I have ever seen ever advises cocked & locked carry:
    (Ordnance Document No. 1866, October 7, 1913):
    "Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency, and when so carried care must be exercised to see that the safety lock does not become disengaged during the removal of the pistol from the holster."
    Sergio
    Anything with a FLGR is fluff, if JMB didn't put it on the 1911 you don't need it.
    If you're going to collect be careful not to get drawn to a piece that is not original, make sure it is a very good example and buy the gun not the story.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by colt45acp View Post
    Somewhere I read as follows:

    "That is a myth. Cocked and locked carry, is just some sort of an unintended bonus feature of the design. Originally the M1911 was often carried in condition 2 or 3. No COLT manual, or Army field manual I have ever seen ever advises cocked & locked carry:
    (Ordnance Document No. 1866, October 7, 1913):
    "Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency, and when so carried care must be exercised to see that the safety lock does not become disengaged during the removal of the pistol from the holster."
    I don't question that you read that somewhere, but I do question the author's understanding of fundamental concepts.

    The War Department Field Manual FM 23-35, Basic Field Manual, Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911 and M1911A1, says the following:

    If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position.
    This was from a field manual dated 1940. The Ordnance Department manual 1866, issued in 1912 and revised in 1914, says:

    If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots, draw back the slide (3), insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel (2), allow the slide (3) to close, then lock the slide (3) and the cocked hammer (23) by pressing the safety lock (36) upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide (3) and hammer (23) being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (36) (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position.
    The 1912 manual includes, toward the end, the statement cited above. However, the citation omits the larger part of the paragraph being quoted. The full paragraph reads:

    2. Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency.
    If the pistol is carried in the holster, cocked and safety lock on, the butt of the pistol should be rotated away from the body when withdrawing the pistol from the holster, in order to avoid displacing the safety lock.
    Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=hs...rigger&f=false

    Another field manual for the M1911 or for the M1911A1 says something about carrying with the hammer down and the chamber empty "except when enemy action is imminent" (or something pretty close to that). As I have commented previously more than once, military use is far different from civilian carry for self-defense. In the military, combat action is generally not "imminent" when you are in a base camp or even a forward fire base, inside the wire and with guard/sentry posts ringing the perimeter. If the installation is attacked, you'll more than likely have sufficient notice that you'll have time to rack the slide to load your first round before engaging the enemy.

    Out on the mean streets of Anytown, USA, it's a different matter entirely. Those of us who carry do so to be prepared to defend ourselves against attack. Such attacks occur without any warning or advance notice. Therefore, "enemy action" (the bad guy's attack) is at all times potentially "imminent." For that reason, the 1911 should be carried cocked and locked because enemy action is always [potentially] imminent.


    Incidentally, the author of that article couldn't even be bothered to get the date of the authority he was citing correct, nor is his quote an accurate quote. Ordnance Department manual 1866 was originally dated April 1, 1912. It was revised and reissued with the date February 14, 1914.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Likes (5) :
    BentLink (10th June 2019), cosh (11th June 2019), MuyModesto (9th September 2019), Rick McC. (20th October 2019), Sergio Natali (12th April 2020)

    Last edited by Hawkmoon; 10th June 2019 at 21:15. Reason: Typos


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick McC. View Post
    I agree. One of my favorite skills is the zipper; scoop draw and shot to the abdomen from 1/2 hip, extending “out and up” to a 3/4 hip shot to COM, continuing to another COM shot from point shoulder, finishing with a forth shot, pistol extended high enough to see the sights (if one cares to use them) to the head.

    End result: four shots on a BG in the time it’ll take a FSP trained shooter to draw, extend, and take a first sighted shot.
    My Father saw that done, 1930s.
    His boss was taking the day's receipts to the bank and was held up, two punks, one gun.
    The next day, he put the money in his pockets, a .45 in the money bag, his hand IN the bag on the gun. "Watson, come with me, I might need a witness".
    Sure enough, the punks "went to the well" again.
    Boss raised his hand smartly, slinging off the bag or shooting through it, I don't know; and started pulling the trigger and riding the recoil.
    Three shots, belly, chest, and head took care of the gunman, his partner fled.

    The police took brief reports from Dad and boss and that was it. Shooting an armed robber was not a complicated event in those days.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    My Father saw that done, 1930s.
    His boss was taking the day's receipts to the bank and was held up, two punks, one gun.
    The next day, he put the money in his pockets, a .45 in the money bag, his hand IN the bag on the gun. "Watson, come with me, I might need a witness".
    Sure enough, the punks "went to the well" again.
    Boss raised his hand smartly, slinging off the bag or shooting through it, I don't know; and started pulling the trigger and riding the recoil.
    Three shots, belly, chest, and head took care of the gunman, his partner fled.

    The police took brief reports from Dad and boss and that was it. Shooting an armed robber was not a complicated event in those days.
    You reminded me of a story my dad had from his Navy days - he was stationed at a small base in Puerto Rico, near Ponce. As far as I can tell, it was primarily for communications and had minimal facilities. To destroy secret materials, they had to be carried to another location- Ramey AFB if I remember correctly - that had an incinerator. Typically, 2 personnel were assigned to the burn runs and were issued 1911's but were instructed NOT to chamber a round. He told me they had an incident where the 2 guys assigned one of the runs never made it to Ramey and were eventually found - shot dead, burn bag full of secret material missing. One had his sidearm still in the holster, the other was found with it loaded, but never fired. After that, when my dad was assigned burn runs, he got his 1911, walked out of the arms room & as soon as he was out of sight of the armorer, put it in condition 1 before leaving base.

  6. #36
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    I carry same as i did with the dea cocked and locked back up is dao ,there is also the strange problem of the de cocked guns firing when dropped no pin block
    Last edited by swmft; 28th August 2019 at 07:17.


  7. #37
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    I carried in condition 1 for both uniform and plain clothes duty as a peace officer from 1983 when it became an optional duty weapon in my agency, until I retired in 2005. Our agency had zero "A.D.'s" (negligent discharges) of 1911 style pistols during all of those years.

    Recently I did think of one circumstance where condition 3 might be the best: A "trunk gun". In my state when I carry a trunk gun it has to be locked in a container that is secured so the container cannot just be picked up and carried away. My reasoning for condition 3 in the trunk is the inertia that a vehicle collision could transfer to the pistol's firing pin inside that locked gun vault in the trunk. Perhaps somebody who knows more about physics than the tiny bit I do from one college class can weigh-in on this. . . . . .
    i sold all my handguns. . . . . . . . . . except for the 1911 style pistols in .45 ACP.

  8. #38
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    Not only with 1911's But with any Semo Auto, That you intend to carry for S D, Should always be carried in Condition 1, Otherwise you have nothing but an expensive hammer, Holding that empty firearm, I tell people if your afraid of carring Cocked and Locked, You should carry a Revolver, For S D Period
    Likes (2) :
    ChippewaAce (11th April 2020), Ric4509 (11th April 2020)


  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuyModesto View Post
    I carried in condition 1 for both uniform and plain clothes duty as a peace officer from 1983 when it became an optional duty weapon in my agency, until I retired in 2005. Our agency had zero "A.D.'s" (negligent discharges) of 1911 style pistols during all of those years.

    Recently I did think of one circumstance where condition 3 might be the best: A "trunk gun". In my state when I carry a trunk gun it has to be locked in a container that is secured so the container cannot just be picked up and carried away. My reasoning for condition 3 in the trunk is the inertia that a vehicle collision could transfer to the pistol's firing pin inside that locked gun vault in the trunk. Perhaps somebody who knows more about physics than the tiny bit I do from one college class can weigh-in on this. . . . . .
    That is a good point, we had a nut job assigned to us at field office who used to drop his gun to see where it went kind of a Russian roulette every time it hit the hammer go bang, heard he did succeed killed the driver in the car he was riding in. Driver was secrete service ,or fbi . I think he was sent to us because all the drug shootouts in miami put the nut jobs together

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by REDTAIL View Post
    Not only with 1911's But with any Semo Auto, That you intend to carry for S D, Should always be carried in Condition 1, Otherwise you have nothing but an expensive hammer, Holding that empty firearm, I tell people if your afraid of carring Cocked and Locked, You should carry a Revolver, For S D Period
    Agreed sir. When I first started CC a number of years ago with a Glock I felt a similar "hesitation" when carrying with one in the chamber. Biggest safeties are your brain and training, and I now of course feel completely comfortable carrying my 1911 in C1.

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