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Thread: Cocked and locked or not?

  1. #21
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    From that article:

    Lots of folks aren’t aware of it, but the 1911 was originally designed without any safety, as Browning felt it was irrelevant.
    Lots of folks call pistols "1911" when they are not, too.
    If it hasn't got grip and thumb safeties, it is not a "1911" because those features are called out in the mil-spec.

    Mr Browning's design philosophy (as opposed to his response to US Army specifications) seems to have been that an exposed hammer with a safety notch was adequate, but if he designed a gun with concealed or no hammer, it had a manual safety, thumb or grip or both.

    The article gets a lot of mileage from Fairbairn's administration of the Royal Hong Kong Police and his insistence on empty chamber carry.
    I wonder if the author approves of his six round limit? Apparently he felt that if a six shot revolver had been adequate, then an auto needed no more.
    I wonder if the author approves of his point firing technique in a present day emphasizing aimed fire at all but the closest ranges.

  2. #22
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    Good questions, Jim!
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  3. #23
    Join Date
    11th October 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakkasan View Post
    Is there another way?
    THIS!

    I bought my first 1911 in '91 - I've carried them Condition 1 since DAY 1.
    "Because shooting twice is ridiculous."
    Likes (2) :
    MuyModesto (6th February 2019), Rick McC. (6th February 2019)


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    From that article:



    Lots of folks call pistols "1911" when they are not, too.
    If it hasn't got grip and thumb safeties, it is not a "1911" because those features are called out in the mil-spec.

    Mr Browning's design philosophy (as opposed to his response to US Army specifications) seems to have been that an exposed hammer with a safety notch was adequate, but if he designed a gun with concealed or no hammer, it had a manual safety, thumb or grip or both.

    The article gets a lot of mileage from Fairbairn's administration of the Royal Hong Kong Police and his insistence on empty chamber carry.
    I wonder if the author approves of his six round limit? Apparently he felt that if a six shot revolver had been adequate, then an auto needed no more.
    I wonder if the author approves of his point firing technique in a present day emphasizing aimed fire at all but the closest ranges.
    There are actually more than a few of us around who’ve been trained in threat focused shooting skills, and routinely use them when shooting, contrary to the FSP training taught by many these days.
    "Sights are for the unenlightened."

    Rick

    IDPA Certified Safety Officer

  5. #25
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    Since I am not an expert by any stretch, I will have to let someone else chime in on that, if I carried a 1911 for SD I would probably carry it cocked & locked, however it's interesting to know that apparently no COLT manual, or Army field manual ever advised cocked & locked carry:

    (Ordnance Document No. 1866, October 7, 1913):
    "Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency, and when so carried care must be exercised to see that the safety lock does not become disengaged during the removal of the pistol from the holster."
    Sergio
    Anything with a FLGR is fluff, if JMB didn't put it on the 1911 you don't need it.
    If you're going to collect be careful not to get drawn to a piece that is not original, make sure it is a very good example and buy the gun not the story.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick McC. View Post
    There are actually more than a few of us around who’ve been trained in threat focused shooting skills, and routinely use them when shooting, contrary to the FSP training taught by many these days.
    Anybody who has done much shooting will have learnt that there is a continuum of means of putting bullets on target. It isn't all one way or the other.
    I was referring to the Fairbairn - Applegate approach which is one handed, gunfighter crouch, point shoulder shooting for most any occasion.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by colt45acp View Post
    Since I am not an expert by any stretch, I will have to let someone else chime in on that, if I carried a 1911 for SD I would probably carry it cocked & locked, however it's interesting to know that apparently no COLT manual, or Army field manual ever advised cocked & locked carry:

    (Ordnance Document No. 1866, October 7, 1913):
    "Do not carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency, and when so carried care must be exercised to see that the safety lock does not become disengaged during the removal of the pistol from the holster."
    More recent field manuals for the M1911A1 revised that somewhat:

    I. In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not foreseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, it should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra magazines should be carried fully loaded.
    Source: FM 23-35, prepared by the War Office, 1940 https://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref...Fs/FM23-35.pdf (page 19)

    My view has always been that when carrying on the street for self defense, "early action" is always possible (if not "probable"), so the only way that makes sense is cocked and locked.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Likes (2) :
    MuyModesto (22nd April 2019), Sergio Natali (9th February 2019)


  8. #28
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    Condition-1. Always.

    DVC
    Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, American Legion

    Beware Cavery Grips/American Gripz from Clayton, NC. He is ripping-off everyone
    Likes (1) :
    MuyModesto (22nd April 2019)


  9. #29
    Join Date
    9th June 2004
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    The Bluejacket's Handbook said to carry the pistol with the chamber empty but that if action was expected, to chamber a round, engage the safety catch, and place the pistol ready to hand on the parapet or musette bag.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    3rd September 2018
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    I've gone with "Condition 1" (cocked & locked) with a chambered round since 1976 and have and no problems in so doing. When arriving at work I would draw it from my off-duty holster, and put it in the holster on my duty belt, still in "Condition 1". At shift's end I would reverse that procedure. Only twice in all those years did citizens comment, "the hammer on your gun is back" (showing their lack of handgun nomenclature knowledge). Perhaps they thought I wasn't aware of the pistol's condition. I told both of them that this particular departmentally authorized optional duty weapon must be carried that way, per department policy. Both of those people seemed satisfied with my explanation.
    i sold all my handguns. . . . . . . . . . except for the 1911 style pistols in .45 ACP.

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