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Thread: Cocked and locked or not?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkmoon View Post
    . That 0.6 seconds may not sound like much if you're playing run-and-gun games, .
    I don't know which run and gun game you are playing, if any, but the last IDPA match here, the difference between second place (me) and third was 0.76 second. And I have seen them closer, down into hundredths of a second. Faster is faster.
    Likes (1) :
    MuyModesto (8th June 2019)


  2. #12
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    Yes, competitions may come down to tenths and even hundredths of a second. But it still doesn't seem like "much" -- that's what's called close competition. On the street, that 0.6 seconds can mean the difference between prevailing in a shootout, or dying.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Likes (2) :
    MuyModesto (8th June 2019), Rick McC. (2nd February 2019)


  3. #13
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    A spread of 0.6 sec might well get both opponents shot.
    0.06 probably would.

  4. #14
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    The axiom that in a stress situation you don't rise to the occasion but revert to your lowest level of training applies in competition and real life. You should train to be competent and competitive in which ever way you choose to carry. Condition 3 is sometimes called Israeli Carry apparently because that's how Israeli forces are trained. I would imagine they can get their weapons into the fight fairly quickly. Again, the key is to train.
    That being said, while both ways have their followers, I am in the camp that it takes less muscle memory to draw and flip down the safety than draw and rack the slide. I figure if I am in a situation where I have had to draw my gun the less I have to worry about how to manipulate my gun to get it to fire, the better off I am.
    Likes (1) :
    Rick McC. (2nd February 2019)


  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cf45 View Post
    Condition 3 is sometimes called Israeli Carry apparently because that's how Israeli forces are trained. I would imagine they can get their weapons into the fight fairly quickly. Again, the key is to train.
    Circumstances are also key in understanding why/how some people (or groups) choose to carry one way or another. Way back when, it probably made a lot of sense to the Israelis to train their soldiers in using Condition 3, because they had to use guns from multiple sources, and strove to create a manual of arms that would cover as many of them as possible. Condition 1 is a possible means of carry only for guns that can be carried cocked and locked. Israelis could get their hands on plenty of 1911s and BHPs that this would be applicable to, but they also shopped everywhere else.

    Also, to an army soldier, a pistol is just backup, and little else. Elite units that fire hundreds of rounds per month in training may devote a meaningful amount of time (and ammo) worrying about how to use their pistols, but most soldiers aren't as lucky. If they have pistols at all, in many parts of the world they'd consider themselves lucky to fire a couple of mags through it per year, in training. Condition 1? Nah, just keep the bloody chamber empty -- just take good care of your rifle, so you never actually NEED the pistol.

    Obviously, none of the above has much bearing on how a citizen ought to carry his/her pistol for self-defense. But it's worth remembering, if/when someone tells you "well, if the Israelis are doing it...".
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  6. #16
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    I think you hit the mark. While it may not have any bearing on how a citizen ought to carry, knowing how and why others train and use their weapons can add to your knowledge base and help you in the development of your style and technique. But depending on that without knowing the context under which they use that knowledge can lead to frustration in your own training.

  7. #17
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    It's probably worth noting that the U.S. military manual of arms for the M1911 and M1911A1 calls for carrying it with an empty chamber and the hammer down under most circumstances -- and the standard holster was a leather holster with a flap that was secured by a stud. The military manual of arms calls for putting the pistol in what we now call "Condition 1" only when enemy action is "imminent."

    However, conditions surrounding military use and carry are different from conditions surrounding civilian, self defense carry. On the mean streets, we hope we'll never need to deploy a handgun but, if we do, we'll likely need it RIGHT NOW! Out on the streets, the possibility of enemy action is always imminent, which is why we carry in Condition 1.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Likes (2) :
    Gruntshooter (29th December 2018), Rick McC. (2nd February 2019)


  8. #18
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    I stand corrected on post last month of carrying my .45 ACP cocked and locked, as Hawkmoon has mentioned, Thankl you. I forgot not intentionally to mention the information Hawkmonn had psoted regarding this topic.

  9. #19
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    Cocked and locked (condition one) for 1911 carry.

    If one isn’t comfortable carrying in condition one, they need to either train more until they are, or get something else.

    All my training has impressed on me that, if you ever need to use your carry gun, the one who can get hits on his opponent first has the best chance of survival. Starting behind the curve with an empty chamber seems like an excellent way to die to me.
    "Sights are for the unenlightened."

    Rick

    IDPA Certified Safety Officer

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyros View Post
    Way back when, it probably made a lot of sense to the Israelis to train their soldiers in using Condition 3, because they had to use guns from multiple sources, and strove to create a manual of arms that would cover as many of them as possible. Condition 1 is a possible means of carry only for guns that can be carried cocked and locked. Israelis could get their hands on plenty of 1911s and BHPs that this would be applicable to, but they also shopped everywhere else.
    You may correct me on this, but I think the Israelis developed the condition 3 carrying, not in their military, but in Mossad. And their standard pistol was a .22 LR Beretta (Model 70S or 71, 72 etc.). These came with a thumb safety, similar to the 1911 one. Below, is an article I found, which discuss this issue.

    http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html

    Personally, if I was to carry a 1911 pistol for self-defence, I would use cocked-and-locked. If the need arises to draw and fire, you need every advantage and racking the slide on a 1911 is much tougher than doing it with a Beretta .22 LR.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org
    Likes (3) :
    MuyModesto (3rd February 2019), Rick McC. (6th February 2019), Sergio Natali (8th February 2019)


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