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Thread: Cocked and locked or not?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    16th April 2005
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    Texas or Bust!
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    Cocked and locked or not?

    Well, if a picture is worth a thousand words:



    John from 1849 Sutter's Fort. Retired and bounding about Texas & the South West.
    Family, blue steel & wood, hot biscuits, and fresh coffee.
    "Life brings sorrow and joy alike. It is what a man does with them - not what they do to him - that is the true test of his mettle." T. Roosevelt
    Likes (4) :
    John (3rd February 2019), KevinRohrer (21st April 2019), MHL555 (24th December 2018), Rich-D (25th July 2018)

    Last edited by Poohgyrr; 21st July 2018 at 15:00.


  2. #2
    Join Date
    31st July 2005
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    I carry condition 1 - In this condition the pistol contains a loaded magazine, a cartridge loaded in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the thumb safety is engaged. It is the carry method most often used by police officers and armed citizens who carry a 1911 for personal defense. My preference.
    Likes (2) :
    horse 91-A1 (25th September 2019), MuyModesto (5th September 2018)


  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Is there another way?
    Likes (1) :
    MuyModesto (5th September 2018)


  4. #4
    Join Date
    25th January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakkasan View Post
    Is there another way?
    Not as far as I'm concerned.
    Likes (1) :
    MuyModesto (5th September 2018)


  5. #5
    Join Date
    12th April 2005
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
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    I also carry my .45 cocked and locked. It is how the gun was originally developed. Just have to remember that a .45 ACP in condition 1 is ready to go. I know there kits made for the .45 to have the hammer down and some owners may prefer to their gun this way. My opinion from praticing with my gun, reading the instruction manuals, and other books written about this fine handgun. Also becoming comfortable and confident with this gun in condition 1.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    2nd June 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen coraggio View Post
    I also carry my .45 cocked and locked. It is how the gun was originally developed. Just have to remember that a .45 ACP in condition 1 is ready to go.
    I respectfully disagree.

    http://sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

    The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. They are:

    Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
    Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
    Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
    Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
    Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
    If the safety is engaged, the pistol is not ready to go. It cannot be fired unless and until the thumb safety has been disengaged. It's not "ready to go" until it has been placed in Condition 0.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Likes (3) :
    MuyModesto (19th December 2018), Ric4509 (28th August 2019), Scott G (18th January 2019)


  7. #7
    Join Date
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    A friend & I were at the range last week. Using a shot timer we tested the time difference between drawing from a holster and shooting, both in condition 1 and condition 3. The difference between the conditions averaged .6 of a second, accuracy was virtually the same for both. Based on our unofficial testing I am not sure that it makes that much difference, which condition a person chooses to carry as long as they do it safely. It is up to the individual to make their choice, then practice and become proficient.

    My $.02.
    Likes (2) :
    MHL555 (24th December 2018), Scott G (18th January 2019)


  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Now try it with one hand.
    Likes (2) :
    1911aug (5th January 2019), Gruntshooter (27th April 2019)


  9. #9
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    And with a target closing the distance.
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    1911aug (5th January 2019)


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cf45 View Post
    And with a target closing the distance.
    Ahhh ... Now we get to the crux of the issue. Let's go back and look at the Tueller Drill.

    If you Google "Tueller Drill," you'll find a brief article on it in Wikipedia. What you won't know (unless you've studied up on the Tueller Drill) is that the Wikipedia article gets it completely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"
    This article completely reverses the sequence of the development of the drill. What then-Sergeant (he later made Lieutenant before retiring) was out to show new officers was a sense of when to be concerned that a subject -- a potential threat -- was close enough to be a real threat. He didn't pick 21 feet and then see how fast people could cross it.

    In fact, Sgt. Tueller began by having a number of his uniformed officers draw from their duty holster, engage a target, and fire. On average, this took 1.5 seconds. That's where the time element came from. THEN he came up with the drill to show how far away a threat could be and be able to close with the officer before the officer could draw and get off a shot. And that's where the 21 foot distance came from. Starting with the 1.5 seconds, he found that -- again, on average -- an assailant could cover 21 feet and stab the officer before the officer could get off a shot. That was a long time ago. Modern police holsters have more secure retention devices. After retirement, Lt. Tueller has commented that the 21-foot distance is no longer valid. It takes more than 1.5 seconds to draw and fire now, so the hypothetical assailant can cover more distance before the officer can draw and fire. I don't recall a new distance having been cited, but perhaps 30 feet is a safe estimate.

    So Dave W's experiment showed a difference of 0.6 seconds between drawing and firing from Condition 1, and drawing and firing from Condition 3. But Dave didn't give us the raw numbers -- only the difference. Put that into practical terms. If we can assume that you are approximately as quick as the police officers back when Dennis Tueller came up with his drill, let's say you can draw and fire from Condition 1 in 1.5 seconds. That would mean that if a knife-wielding assailant begins his attack on you from 21 feet (that's the length of a full parking stall in a shopping center lot), you'll get off your first shot just as he sticks his knife in your chest.

    Now add .6 seconds to the time you need to fire your first shot. It's not a pretty picture. That 0.6 seconds may not sound like much if you're playing run-and-gun games, but in real life that can be the margin between winning and losing.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Likes (2) :
    Mark75H (21st April 2019), Poohgyrr (14th February 2019)


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