You may use this thread to discuss our article "M1911.ORG does Project Appleseed", as it appears in our E-zine.
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You may use this thread to discuss our article "M1911.ORG does Project Appleseed", as it appears in our E-zine.
I enjoyed the Project Appleseed article. I shot in my first Appleseed event on April 21-22 of this year. I used a Ruger 10/22 fit with a Hawke Sport Otics Vantage 3-9x40 AO riflescope. This is a fairly inexpensive adjustable objective, variable magnification scope that can be purchased on Amazon and from multiple vendors for around $110, and it served me pretty well.
The problem that Harwood experienced with his scope placement is a pretty common one. I see a lot of folks with rifle scopes mounted on their rifles with the objective lens set well behind the receiver. This works very well for shooting offhand or from a bench, but will not work for 3 or 4 position shooting. As Harwood noted, unless one of your parents was a turtle, you will not be able to extend your head forward or backward in the prone position by making your neck longer or shorter. The exact scope placement will vary with the length of pull of your rifle, but most prone shooters find that the need to have the ocular placed about even with the rear end of the receiver in order to position the scope to obtain proper position within the eyebox when shooting prone.
Unless you have an extension accessory rail mounted on the receiver of your rifle, getting most rifle scopes that far forward will require using either a one-piece, cantilevered scope mount or a set of extension rings. I use a set of Weaver rings with one straight up ring on the rear tube and an extension ring on the front tube of the scope, and I have the scope mounted on the stock Ruger combo Weaver/3/8" dovetail accessory rail that comes with the Ruger 10/22. This positions the ocular about an inch behind the rear of the receiver, but I also an using a Limbsaver slip-on recoil pad on the butt stock of my 10/22 in order to increase its LOP by about and inch and a quarter.
With your scope mounted that far forward you may well find that it is further forward than you are accustomed to when shooting sitting, kneeling, or especially standing, but in those positions your head is upright and you can adjust eye position by "turkey necking" your head forward on the neck.
A lot of 3 and 4 position shooters who use a scope or elevated iron sights will also need to build up the comb height of the butt stock of their rifles to obtain a proper cheek weld. A good cheek weld will also help to achieve a consistent head position which will minimize parallax errors if you do not have a scope with an adjustable objective lens. You can make a comb riser on the cheap using some closed cell foam and Vet wrap tape. I use a comb riser kit made by Beartooth Products which works quite well and looks a bit neater.
As for slings, I used a USGI web sling in a hasty configuration when shooting offhand. Not everyone is agreed that a sling improves accuracy in the standing position. I am undecided if it helps me or not. If you ever shoot CMP or NRA 3 position High Power rifle competition you cannot use the sling to support the rifle when shooting offhand. I do favor the 1907 leather loop sling for shooting sitting and prone. I simply used quick connect hardware on my slings, detaching the USGI sling after the first stage of the AQT (Army Qualification Test) shoots, then attaching the leather sling for the remaining stages. I have to loosen the 1907 sling by two hole sets when going from sitting to prone. I simply left the loop sling on my arm, detached it from the front swivel after stage 2 of the AQTs, and loosened it between stages 2 and 3 of the AQT when behind the firing line. One word of caution, if you zero your scope without a sling, you may find that a tight sling lowers your point of impact slightly. I am a right handed shooter and found that with a tight sling, my POI shifted downward about a half inch and slightly to the left at 25 meters.
I am 66 and underwent hip replacement surgery within the last couple of years. As a result, I am considerably less spry than I once was. I find the prone and sitting positions reasonably comfortable once I get into them. Quickly transitioning from standing to sitting, or standing to prone (required for stage 2 and 3 of the AQT respectively) is another matter. Stage 2 and 3 of the AQTs require not only a transition from standing to position, but also a magazine change during the course of fire. The second stage of the AQT requires shooting at two different reduced silhouettes so there is also a shift in natural point of aim after the first 5 rounds. Stage 3 is shot on three different reduced silhouettes so 2 separate shifts in NPOA are required during the course. The time limit for stage 2 is 55 seconds and for the third stage 65 seconds. So as an example, in stage 2 you start slung up in the standing position with an unloaded rifle. On the fire command, you drop into your sitting position and load a magazine containing 2 rounds. You fire one or two rounds into the first silhouette (swapping magazines after the first round with a round still chambered eliminates the need to close or rack the bolt which saves a split second). After swapping magazines you fire the balance of 5 rounds into the first silhouette, then shift NPOA and fire the remaining 5 rounds into the second silhouette. All of this needs to be completed within 55 seconds. These stages also require you to remember how many rounds you have shot at each silhouette. I found that there was very considerable time pressure on stage 2 of the AQT and somewhat less on stage 3. But both stages require you to shoot at a very steady cadence if you are going to get all your shots off.
I found the Appleseed event to be great fun and the historical information was quite interesting. My event was a two day event which allowed a somewhat slower pace, but things still moved along relatively quickly. My recommendation for anyone who plans to attend is to do some preparation before hand. Try getting into the sitting and prone positions and do some dry firing. Once you feel comfortable in those positions, practice transitioning to them from standing. Rig up your sling(s) and determine how tight you need to have them for the different positions. Some people will mark the positions on USGI cotton web slings. Practice some magazine swaps using unloaded magazines.
If you plan to use a rifle scope, get into the prone position and adjust its position using the highest magnification you plan to use shooting prone. Eyebox length shortens as magnification is zoomed up, so at your highest intended magnification power, move your scope just far enough forward so that you do not have any vignetting. You will soon find out if you need an extended rail, extension rings, or a cantilever mount. I found that I needed to mess around with my scope 3 or 4 times before I got it set at what I think is the optimal position. Decide if you need some type of comb riser to achieve a good cheek weld.
Once you get your equipment set up, go out to the range and try shooting several different types of ammunition through your rifle. Not all rifles, even of the same make and model will perform optimally with the same ammunition. Go ahead and zero your scope or sights at 25 meters from the bench, but then sling up and shoot some sitting and prone to see if your POI shifts. Test out all the magazines you plan to use. You need a minimum of two, but you should have at least one extra. Many mark the magazines so that they do not confuse which holds two rounds and which holds eight at the start of stage 2 and 3 of the AQT. If you really want to nail the AQT and get that rifleman patch, you can order both the AQT and the Redcoat targets from the Project Appleseed store and do some practicing before hand. I found it was easy to shoot the wrong number of shots at the individual targets during some of the stages. Stage 1 is easy because you shoot all ten rounds at one target. On stage 2, you shoot 5 rounds at each of two targets (with a mag change during the first 5 rounds). But on stage 3 you shoot 3 rounds at the first silhouette (with a mag change), 3 rounds at the second, and 4 rounds at the third. On stage 4 you shoot 2 rounds at each of the first two silhouettes and 3 rounds at each of the last two. With the number of rounds shot on each silhouette always changing from one stage to the next, it is easy to get messed up. Shooting a few practice AQTs before the event will help get the drill ingrained.
Last edited by pblanc; 19th June 2018 at 09:41.
Excellent comments, pblanc.
I have a Mauser 24.47 that solves the eye relief problem completely. I used a mount that replaces the ladder sight with a Picatinny rail, to which I mounted a handgun scope. The eye relief is generous, so there's no problem shooting from the prone position. It's unfortunate that rimfire rifles can't be set up with a "scout scope"-like setup such as this. It might be fun to shoot an Appleseed "known distance" event with the Mauser. (Except for the cost of the ammo!)
Last edited by Greywolf; 19th June 2018 at 09:47.
I've already been shooting CMP matches on a regular basis for well over a decade when I did the Appleseed shoot back in 2009 to obtain my RIFLEMAN patch. I knew I was getting lazy with my self discipline and getting in the habit of being sloppy with my technique, and thought maybe the "sink or swim" environment of an Appleseed shoot was what I needed to push myself harder to a higher level of proficiency; and it worked, resulting in wining my RIFLEMAN patch on the second day! This was the year before I got my hip replacement surgery, and in spite of all my other physical ailments from decades of working in the construction field since the 70's, so I can relate to your experience of physical issues.
In anticipation of the Appleseed shoot I decided to grab one of my AR15's that had a 16" stainless steel bull barrel chambered in 223REM with a 1 in 8 twist rate and put a LEOPOLD low magnification zero parallax red dot sight on it. Plus being an experienced HIGH POWER match shooter I installed a T-slot rail underneath the forend so I could utilize a handstop with a sling swivel so I could have the shooting sling attached closer to the receiver; allowing me to utilize the "Olympic rollover" prone position where the shooter's spine is aligned with the target. The advantage of the Olympic rollover prone is that it relieves ground pressure off of your diaphragm. It's the fact of the sling swivel being much farther forward from the receiver on military rifles that requires one to employ the "Military" prone position with the shooter's spine aligned at a 45° angle to the target and the belly/diaphragm flat on the ground.
My rifle setup performed beautifully! Shot like a dream. All my misses we're all totally my fault, lol. If my 59 year old eyes were better I would've tried to get a second RIFLEMAN patch with my M1 GARAND!
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John (23rd December 2018)
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Last edited by Oldhogleg; 22nd December 2018 at 20:33.
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