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Thread: reloading dies for dummy rounds

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by megafiddle View Post
    I figured I need a taper crimp, but looking at this one:

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/24...aper-crimp-die
    I saw this:

    Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove (cannelure).

    -
    I did a bit of follow-up on this question. I searched Midway for a Lee crimping die for .45 Colt, which is a revolver round that takes a roll crimp. Their search brought me to the same page as your link, and showed me a taper crimp die for a .44 Special/.44 Magnum (which are also revolver rounds that require a roll crimp). But the verbiage about the cannelure is appropriate for a roll crimp, not for a taper crimp.

    I gave up trying to buy from Midway years ago because their web site was so impossible to use. The site has been completely revamped since then, but it's just as brain dead now as it was before.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkmoon View Post
    I did a bit of follow-up on this question. I searched Midway for a Lee crimping die for .45 Colt, which is a revolver round that takes a roll crimp. Their search brought me to the same page as your link, and showed me a taper crimp die for a .44 Special/.44 Magnum (which are also revolver rounds that require a roll crimp). But the verbiage about the cannelure is appropriate for a roll crimp, not for a taper crimp.

    I gave up trying to buy from Midway years ago because their web site was so impossible to use. The site has been completely revamped since then, but it's just as brain dead now as it was before.

    I am going to try the Lee factory crimp die. I found a detailed drawing of it at the Lee Precision site. Looks like I can disassemble it and use the crimp and sizing portions separately.

    The Midway's description for the Lee taper crimp die ("Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove") apparently came right from Lee Precision. Brownells uses a similar description also.

    Lee doesn't seem to list a "roll crimp die"; so maybe the cartridge type of the die determines whether their dies actually roll crimp or not.

    -
    Last edited by megafiddle; 2nd April 2018 at 19:37.


  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by megafiddle View Post
    Lee doesn't seem to list a "roll crimp die"; so maybe the cartridge type of the die determines whether their dies actually roll crimp or not.

    -
    Correct. The factory crimp die produces a taper crimp for semi-auto cartridges, and a roll crimp for revolver cartridges. I thought that was explained somewhere on Lee's web site, but I haven't looked at it for quite some time.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  4. #14
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    Ya still have to get that projectile into the case, so why not a combination die, such as a RCBS {or insert other manufacturer} seating die?

  5. #15
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    Unless there has been some change to the way the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die for the 45 Auto / 45 ACP is manufactured, it cannot produce a roll crimp. That's because neither the lower carbide sizing ring nor the upper adjustable crimping sleeve has enough taper. My best measure of their included tapers are about 4 for the lower carbide sizing ring and about 12 for the upper taper crimp sleeve. As can be seen in the lower image in Post #6, the roll crimp is more of an abrupt step than a taper.

    As previously stated, if you give the case mouth a minimum amount of flare with a 2" long #8 taper pin - just enough so the bullet can be carefully seated without crinkling the case mouth - seating the bullet will produce a finished round with the case mouth snug against the bullet with no need for a crimping die. How do I know? Simply because I've done it.

    How do I know so much about the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die? I've bought 3 of them over the years. And I'm quite proficient at measuring things.

    You're way overthinking this. Next thing you know someone will convince you to buy a reloading press!

    Lastly: this is just me, but I don't believe much of anything I read from Lee Precision.
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 3rd April 2018 at 15:48.


  6. #16
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    My recommendation for using the Lee Factory Crimp Die was based on my assumption that these dummies would be loaded using once- (or more than once-) fired brass, which would potentially be expanded to larger than SAAMI specs for the cartridge. Since megafiddle isn't using a loading press and isn't using a sizing die, the Factory Crimp Die seemed like the best way to assure that the cases are full-length sized -- even though it means doing it after the bullets have been seated rather than before.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  7. #17
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    But when Megafiddle said "These will only consist of new FMJ 230 gr bullets and brass." it sounded like the brass was also new. And new brass from the factory doesn't require resizing as it's never been fired.

    In addition, with no loading press, how would the finished round be extracted from the Lee CFC die without a press and shell holder?

    All that's needed for this is a 2" long #8 taper pin (or something similar), something like a pocket knife to chamfer the inside edges of the case mouths and something like a drill press or drill press vise to seat the bullets.
    However, if I've misread what was written and the brass has been fired - forget all that I've said and purchase factory made dummy rounds.

    BTW, was going to include the following image of the Lee CFC Die in Post #15, but edit time had expired by the time I found it:

    http://
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 3rd April 2018 at 15:58.


  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s View Post
    But when Megafiddle said "These will only consist of new FMJ 230 gr bullets and brass." it sounded like the brass was also new. And new brass from the factory doesn't require resizing as it's never been fired.
    Yes, I did mean that the brass is also new.


    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s View Post
    In addition, with no loading press, how would the finished round be extracted from the Lee CFC die without a press and shell holder?
    I also ordered a shell holder just in case. They're cheap enough. I will find some way to extract them if full resizing is necessary (see below).


    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s View Post
    All that's needed for this is a 2" long #8 taper pin (or something similar), something like a pocket knife to chamfer the inside edges of the case mouths and something like a drill press or drill press vise to seat the bullets. However, if I've misread what was written and the brass has been fired - forget all that I've said and purchase factory made dummy rounds.
    If I flare the case mouths, wouldn't I still need a crimping die to remove the flare?

    Just to get an idea of what I'll be working with, I cut a chamfer inside the case and pressed a bullet in. I would rather flare instead of chamfering and have full case wall thickness at the front edge of the mouth, but I didn't have anything to flare it with.

    I am using a UMC factory round as representative of the factory ammo that I am trying to duplicate. UMC is what I will be shooting in the gun that this dummy ammo is intended to test for functioning.

    The dummy round I "loaded" is 0.002" larger at the mouth, and 0.001" larger at the base, compared to the UMC. The UMC round drops freely into the barrel chamber. The dummy round sticks.

    So it looks like I will need to reduce the diameter at the case front at least.

    The bullets are Sierra 230 gr FMJ, and cases are Hornady.

    -
    Last edited by megafiddle; 3rd April 2018 at 21:12.


  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrenean View Post
    Ya still have to get that projectile into the case, so why not a combination die, such as a RCBS {or insert other manufacturer} seating die?
    I was wondering about those. Since the die needs to stop when the overall length is reached, would that mean that the crimp is fixed?

    The amount of crimp cannot be controlled independently?

    -

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by megafiddle View Post
    I was wondering about those. Since the die needs to stop when the overall length is reached, would that mean that the crimp is fixed?

    The amount of crimp cannot be controlled independently?

    -
    You can control the crimp. It is a two step process. One to set the OAL. One to set the crimp.

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