Welcome to M1911.ORG
The M1911 Pistols Organization Forums Site


John needs your help
Please read this message.


Sponsors Panel
If you intend to buy something from the companies advertising above, or near the bottom of our pages, please use their banners in our sites. Whatever you buy from them, using those banners, gives us a small commission, which helps us keep these sites alive. You still pay the normal price, our commission comes from their profit, so you have nothing to lose, while we have something to gain. Your help is appreciated.
If you want to become a sponsor and see your banner in the above panel, click here to contact us.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: John Browning and the M1911A1

THREAD CLOSED
This is an old thread. You can't post a reply in it. It is left here for historical reasons.Why don't you create a new thread instead?
  1. #1
    Join Date
    22nd March 2017
    Location
    Bristol TN
    Posts
    44
    Posts liked by others
    4

    John Browning and the M1911A1

    Hi All,

    Did Browning play any part in the M1911A1 modifications, or was this a Colt/US military adventure?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    9th June 2004
    Location
    Alabama, US
    Posts
    2,199
    Posts liked by others
    115
    I never heard that Mr Browing was involved in the 1911A1 changes. Note that they are all ergonomic, not mechanical. No patent to be had.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    21st September 2008
    Posts
    9,964
    Posts liked by others
    209
    Some claim that sometime after the end of WWI, JMB did indeed have some ideas for real, mechanical improvements to the 1911 (IIRC centered around the barrel link and generally the lock-up mechanism of the gun), but that the Army rejected them because they would make the new and existing guns incompatible. Understandably, the Army was quite happy with the guns they already had (except for their finish, which was being addressed at that time) so they only approved changes that would not compromise parts' interchangeability.

    Again, this is just a claim and I don't know (or remember) any satisfactory sources corroborating it.
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  4. #4
    Join Date
    22nd March 2017
    Location
    Bristol TN
    Posts
    44
    Posts liked by others
    4
    Thanks Spyros,

    I was curious if Mr. Browning considered his design OK as is, or was involved in the improvements. During the development of the M1911. I would assume that he worked at Colt
    to perfect his design and be assisted by Colt machinery and employees. Also curious in that did he assign his patents to Colt and just settle on some sort of royalty or was there
    a different compensation involved once the M1911 was adopted?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    9th June 2004
    Location
    Alabama, US
    Posts
    2,199
    Posts liked by others
    115
    I read that Mr Browning did not charge the War Department for use of his designs.
    How Colt paid for the GM, I don't recall.

    I wonder what he was doing between 1911 and 1917. Long lead time on the machine gun and automatic rifle?

    If he tinkered with the 1911, I have not seen a description or patent.
    Last edited by Jim Watson; 11th April 2018 at 00:38.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    21st September 2008
    Posts
    9,964
    Posts liked by others
    209
    Quote Originally Posted by noro View Post
    I was curious if Mr. Browning considered his design OK as is, or was involved in the improvements. During the development of the M1911. I would assume that he worked at Colt to perfect his design and be assisted by Colt machinery and employees.
    Not sure if he worked just for Colt, as he made plenty of designs for many companies throughout his career, often designing something on his own and then demonstrating it to different companies. At that time he wouldn't be working for European companies, presumably. But to answer your first question (if he considered his design OK as is), well he was an engineer. Engineers never really consider anything to be OK as-is. In his specific case, we know he considered the 1911's barrel lockup to be a bit of a compromise. His previous pistol designs used two links (one in the rear, one in the front) to keep the barrel parallel to the slide as it locked and unlocked. This supposedly this made for better accuracy... but it also required that the gun be field-stripped with the slide being removed rearwards. This didn't make for a very 'beefy' design, so it had to go. That's why many assume that JMB's later suggestions for changes in the M1911 revolved around barrel lockup.

    Quote Originally Posted by noro View Post
    Also curious in that did he assign his patents to Colt and just settle on some sort of royalty or was there a different compensation involved once the M1911 was adopted?
    This one we know: the patents belonged to Colt (and possibly the Army), not JMB himself. That's why he had trouble later on in Europe, when he was designing guns with Fabrique Nationale for the French government and others: 'his' Colt patents were still in force, so he had to design things AROUND them! The design of what eventually became the FN P-35 GP (better known as Browning Hi-Power) was well advanced at the time of Browning's death (1923), a prototype by Diedonne Saive in 1925 being nearly identical to the finished article. But they had to delay its release for another decade, for the remaining Browning patents (barrel lockup, thumb safety) to lapse. Hence the rollmark on many FN pistol slides:

    BROWNING'S PATENT DÉPOSÉ

    Other FN pistols (like the M1922) had the same roll-mark, but that referred to patent(s) that had lapsed earlier, like the one for the enclosed slide, for instance.
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  7. #7
    Join Date
    22nd March 2017
    Location
    Bristol TN
    Posts
    44
    Posts liked by others
    4
    Thanks all. Was curious what Browning received for his work in the M1911. While I know he refused royalties on the .30 and .50 machine guns, and BAR, the M1911 was adopted before time of war, and I assume he received substantial royalties pre WW!.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    2nd June 2004
    Location
    Terra
    Posts
    22,286
    Posts liked by others
    906
    In intellectual property terms, Browning's design of the M1911 was a "work for hire." Unlike other designs, that he came up with and then peddled to gun makers, the M1911 was designed directly for Colt, because Colt hired JMB to design their entry into the Ordnance Department's competition for a new duty handgun. The M1911 both was and wasn't a "clean sheet" design. The Ordnance Department didn't stipulate what the new pistol had to look like or exactly how it should function, but they did set forth some basic parameters that all the competitors had to adhere to. And then, as the competition and the evaluations moved forward, the Ordnance Department added other criteria -- for example, the original 1910 prototype didn't have a thumb safety. That was added because the Ordnance Department required it.

    The patents belonged to Colt because the design was a "work for hire." Browning wasn't working for himself, he was working for Colt.

    I don't recall ever reading anything about how or how much he was paid for the M1911 design.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  9. #9
    Join Date
    4th June 2004
    Posts
    2,829
    Posts liked by others
    185
    Colt paid Mr. Browning a royalty out of the purchase price per pistol from the US Govt. I couldn't find the exact amount in a quick search but believe I remember 50 cents.
    Likes (1) :
    John (12th April 2018)


  10. #10
    Join Date
    22nd March 2017
    Location
    Bristol TN
    Posts
    44
    Posts liked by others
    4
    Thanks for the insights, guys.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Sponsors Panel
If you intend to buy something from Brownells, please use their banners above. Whatever you buy from them, gives us a small commission, which helps us keep these sites alive. You still pay the normal price, our commission comes from their profit, so you have nothing to lose, while we have something to gain. Your help is appreciated.
If you want to become a sponsor and see your banner in the above panel, click here to contact us.

Non-gun-related supporters.
Thank you for visiting our supporters.