Now why didn't I think of that?
Of course, Sistema means System. The name can't be Sistema, all by itself. The Argentines called it the "Colt System Model of 1927" so I guess that's what it is. Unless someone wants to rename it.
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Now why didn't I think of that?
Of course, Sistema means System. The name can't be Sistema, all by itself. The Argentines called it the "Colt System Model of 1927" so I guess that's what it is. Unless someone wants to rename it.
- MacEntyre
Per Ardua, Infensus, Sine Politico
Haec manus inimica tyrannis
The same factory also produced (and maybe still produces) clones of the Hi-Power. The Belgian models are FN Hi-Powers, the Argentinean pistols are FM Hi-Powers. So I suppose we could (and perhaps should) refer to them as "FM 1911s." But most people still call them Sistemas, and most people know what's being discussed. The problem is those who persist in arguing that they are Colts.
They're not Colts. (Except for the first 10,000 pistols, the ones made in Hartford for Argentina. But those are rollmarked Colt, not Sist. or D.G.F.M. - (F.M.A.P) )
Hawkmoon
On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
Last edited by Hawkmoon; 8th December 2018 at 21:52.
Of course, you are correct!
- MacEntyre
Per Ardua, Infensus, Sine Politico
Haec manus inimica tyrannis
Conventional nomenclature is hard to change.
At one time in Europe, any lever action was called a "Winchester" which must have annoyed Marlin.
Any autopistol was called a "Browning" which must have annoyed FN.
Any .22 was called a "Flobert", which must have annoyed everybody.
These days, about any single action autopistol is called a "1911" which sure annoys me, especially when looking at a pocket pistol on a Star action.
I think FN was happy to advertise its relationship with JMB, so it probably didn't annoy them too much.
A lot of people called their .22s 'Floberts' because rifled barrels weren't always allowed on such arms, whereas smoothbores (like actual Floberts) were legal. So .22s were all called/declared as Floberts, deliberately. Wink-wink.
A while back we had a discussion (or fifteen) about how to define a 1911: some people would eschew doublestacks, and/or DA (or quasi-DA) variants, like ParaOrdnance's LDA, Colt Double Eagles, etc-etc. On the other extreme, a member pointed out that back in the early 20th century, before the 1911's patents lapsed (the last one went in 1935, i.e. when the BHP was launched--which wasn't a coincidence), any semi-auto that made use any of the four patents, found on the early M1911s and Colt Govt. Models, would be deemed to be a 1911. If we apply this logic today, even a Glock 17 would be considered to be a 1911 (tilting barrel, enclosed slide). The Beretta 92FS is probably the only modern service-caliber pistol that would not be a 1911!
Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
M. Setter
That's a great point... Glock wouldn't exist without JMB's 1911 patents.
However, just to keep us on topic, since we answered the heat treating question in the OP, and now that all the mods are present, what do you call these again?
- MacEntyre
Per Ardua, Infensus, Sine Politico
Haec manus inimica tyrannis
Last edited by MacEntyre; 9th December 2018 at 22:31.
I would call them 'Argentine Sistemas', because I'd struggle to remember 'DGFM-FMAP', and even if I did, most people would struggle to figure out what I was going on about.
I certainly wouldn't call them 'Argentine Colts', because there were indeed Colts, made in Hartford CT, for sale to Argentina, complete with Argentine service crests etc, legitimately being called 'Argentine Colts'. Unlike those guns, the guns in the previous post are made in Argentina. As has already been mentioned, 'Sistema' really refers to the caliber of the guns, not their name or type, but the name has stuck, for lack of a more accurate, USABLE name or moniker.
Similarly, there are some nice single-action, single-stack Polish 9mm pistols that look a bit like 1911s, that are often called 'Polish Radoms', which is similarly wrong; 'Radom' is the name of the city they were made in, in Poland. Their proper name is 'Vis 35'... but who (other than Ian 'Gun Jesus' McCollum) would understand what you mean if you called them that?
Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
M. Setter
reminds me of Crocodile Dundee. To paraphrase, "Tha's not a Colt. This is a Colt!"
- MacEntyre
Per Ardua, Infensus, Sine Politico
Haec manus inimica tyrannis
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