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Thread: New guy, old gun, lot's of Q's...

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  1. #1
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    New guy, old gun, lot's of Q's...

    Hi All,

    Last year I found a 1944 Ithaca in pretty good shape. This past week, I bought an incomplete early 1913 Colt (#23635) with it's finish rather crudely removed, for a project. I'm hoping some of you experts can tell me exactly what I have, what I need, what finish is appropriate for this gun, and how broke I'll be after rebuilding it. Here's a Photobucket slideshow...

    I know repop grip panels are available, would this be recommended over the "real deals" for a rebuilder like this? And was there any variation in grip screws, as I have none...

    Thanks!

    Russ

  2. #2
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    Looks heavily buffed and some deep pits finished over. Appears something happened to the front sight. Some later/refinished small parts. Can't see the barrel marks well enough. Authentic WWI era stocks run several hundred dollars per set. Expensive to fully restore; several thousand+ from one of the top restorers I would guess and still would not look issue.

    As a fun project I might suggest Parkerizing and some WWII era plastic grips to simulate a arsenal/depot rebuild. I'd recommend one shop refinish the frame/slide and a different shop for the small parts so they don't match exactly for color since the rebuilds normally didn't. Standard grip screws would work in this case. Shipped 27 Feb 1913 to Commanding Officer, Benicia Arsenal, Benicia, California in a shipment of 550 pistols so that adds some interest.

  3. #3
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    Thanks, Doran. My dealer also mentioned the front sight may have been altered. He mentioned the front sight is pinned/staked in and can be replaced? The barrel has three marks, "P" & "H" on top and either "6" or "G" on the underside. I plan on calling Colt about (at least) the slide. The seller mentioned that he had talked to them about having the logo roll mark redone along with the finishing and that Colt quoted $200-300 over the phone, which seems pretty unrealistic. Would you know what "bluing" flavor this early gun would have had? And is Duracoat an option or is it too easily scratched?

    Thanks!

    Russ

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RASelkirk View Post
    Would you know what "bluing" flavor this early gun would have had? And is Duracoat an option or is it too easily scratched?
    1913 was too early for the "black" finish, so the finish would have been blue, with a slightly grainy surface, not a high-gloss polish. Rather than use a spray-on coating, why not go to Brownells and get their rust-bluing product? It won't cost any more than Duracoat and it will give you a finish that's very close to the original.

    http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod22820.aspx

    Before refinishing, you can clean up the flats by using a sheet of glass and s sheet of very fine grit (1200 or finer) automotive wet/dry sandpaper. Lay the sand paper on the glass, hold it with one hand, and gently run the slide or receiver along the sandpaper to clean it up. Done carefully and in moderation, you can remove many of the smaller dings and scratches without destroying or rounding the edges and rollmarks.

    Obviously, to do this on the receiver you'll have to remove the grip screw bushings. Those are staked in, so remove them carefully to avoid damaging the receiver.

    Clearly, my preference would be to make it look more original rather than to make it look like an arsenal rebuild as suggested by Doran. The pistol can never be original again, so what direction you take it will be your choice. If you go with a rust blue finish, reproduction M1911 (wood, double diamond) grips would be entirely appropriate.

    Aside from the front sight, the hammer is a flat-sided M1911A1 style. Reproduction wide-spur hammers are readily available and I would swap out the hammer for one that's more appropriate to a 1913 pistol. The thumb safety and slide lock appear to be appropriate for the M1911.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Last edited by Hawkmoon; 20th October 2016 at 10:57.


  5. #5
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    Possible to replace the front sight with a reproduction from Cylinder & Slide for not much expense. An original front sight also several hundred dollars from someone who knows what he has. I'd make sure the slide not altered before I bought a front sight.

    Clear closeup photos required to determine the barrel vintage.

    I've never contacted Colt about refinishing but that seems low and would no longer match the frame condition. Chasing the roll marks only might be an option.

    Heat blue for that era and not possible to replicate outside of a professional restore. Distinctive sanding patterns for that era so duplicate those if you go that route. Rust blue probably the best option if you want blue finish but a softer, duller, different color than original.

    I've never owned a pistol with Duracoat finish but would leave this one as is before using something that permanent.

  6. #6
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    Added two closeups of the barrel. Did a 1913 issue even have the Colt prancing horse? After looking at the slide again, the lettering is still quite solid. Seems it would be near impossible to buff off that particular roll mark while leaving the lettering completely intact...

    http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...psgzmmyqug.jpg
    http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...pslykmc1vp.jpg

    Russ

  7. #7
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    That vintage slide had the rampant Colt aft of the cocking serrations. Some very lightly stamped and I've observed a few I thought original Colt slides wo the mark. In these photos I'm guessing lightly stamped and buffed off. I might think differently seeing the actual slide.

    The P H marks reading with the barrel pointed right ca. serials 25,000 thru ~120,000. The P H marks reading with the barrel pointed up ca. serials 110,000 thru ~425,000. These serial ranges from Mr. Charles Clawson's 3rd ed. Collector's Guide. Your barrel marks read with the barrel pointed up indicating later issue than the pistol.

  8. #8
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    Very rough, has been filed and sanded. Hammer and thumb safety are A1s, can't tell about the slide stop. Bushing is early, probably correct.
    An interesting project if you have the skills to DIY but it would cost thousands of dollars for a Turnbull restoration. Guy on the other board spent $2600 with them to have a plated but otherwise correct gun stripped and properly finished.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    Hammer and thumb safety are A1s, can't tell about the slide stop.
    We can see that the slide stop is correct for an M1911. In the photo of the left side, the line at the bottom of the checkered pad of the slide stop is parallel to the bottom of the slide and to the top edge of the slide stop.



    That's characteristic of the M1911. The same line on the M1911A1 (and all modern 1911s) slopes slightly downward toward the front, as in this photo, parallel to the bottom edge of the slide stop.

    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside
    Last edited by Hawkmoon; 22nd October 2016 at 10:14.


  10. #10
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    Guys, thanks for the help! I did sign up for Scott's site and will be having a good, long look there. Please keep the hints coming!

    Russ

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