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Thread: Does this case make my bullet look fat?

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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by noylj View Post
    Lots of folks seat their bullets crooked (see the Lee FCD). It shows up as a case bulge in one location at the base of the bullet--as niemi24s scoffs at—. . .
    To me, for a bullet to be seated crooked in its case, the axis of the bullet must be significantly out of parallel with that of the case - pointed in different direction, so to speak. And although I've only been handloading for 52 years, I've never once managed to get a bullet seated crooked.

    I have, however, managed to seat thousands of cast lead bullets where the axes of the bullet are essentially parallel but offset a few thousandths from each other as seen below:



    The condition seen above (at least as good as my photo skills can manage) is due solely to the fact that the centers of the cylinders representing the case mouth ID and OD are offset from each other yet parallel to each other, resulting in the carefully measured variation in case wall thickness shown above. Of all my 45 Auto brass, the older R-P cases (not the newer R•P ones) are the worst and when loaded with a cast lead bullet virtually every one will have a bulge on one side that's much more prominent than the bulge on the opposite side. And I have many hundreds of the old R-P cases. A contributing factor in this phenomenon is that the case wall thickness (of all cases) begins to increase at about 0.30" from the case mouth which helps the case below the base of the seated bullet resist being stretched and thus accentuating the bulge.

    Guess what I'm trying to say is there's probably a difference in what "crooked" means to each of us. What's crooked to you is off-center to me. And it's easy for me to see why some conclude a larger bulge on one side at the bullet base must mean the bullet's been seated crooked - simply because at first glance the bulge gives that appearance. Appearances are, however, often deceiving. After careful analysis I've concluded it's all due to variations in case wall thickness as shown in Column H of this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...idM/edit#gid=0

    Note that the Remington/Speer/CCI family of cases exhibit the greatest variations in Column H. These cases will, therefore, be the most likely to give the false impression of a crooked bullet. False, because the bullets are simply off-center but not crooked (in the usual sense of the word).

    Just my US2¢ worth.
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 23rd March 2015 at 10:24.


  2. #12
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    Unlike Dan, I have only been reloading .45 ACP used brass for about 9 years. I have, however, managed to load well over 100,000 rounds in that time. Being somewhat ocd, I noticed the apparently "crooked' bullets right away when I started reloading. After much futzing around I finally figured out the "problem" was due to case wall thickness variation, just as Dan posted. The only real problem I have ever encountered was early on when I was using Winchester WB brass and I failed to properly seat some of the primers. I finally sat down and sized the primer holes on several thousand Winchester cases and never had the problem again. I also quit using the Winchester when I discovered Blazer Brass. It was cheaper and it worked without any adjustment. I have always been amazed that the Blazer Brass looks new inside no matter how many times I reuse it. For some reason, powder residue refuses to stick to the inside of the case. I've never known why.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911jim1941 View Post
    ... I have always been amazed that the Blazer Brass looks new inside no matter how many times I reuse it. For some reason, powder residue refuses to stick to the inside of the case. I've never known why.
    Yeah, what in the world could cause that? I see the same thing.

    BTW, I wish my projectiles looked as shiny as Dan's but I doubt I would ever have the skills to produce such beauties. And, BTW, BTW, I chamfered, lightened up the crimp and crimped in a two-step seat then crimp operation. I will see if I can detect a performance difference between loading regimes, if I can ever get back out to the range.

  4. #14
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    Pyrenan - I don't know why the Blazer Brass does that. When I first shot them I noticed it and someone said it was the powder they use. But then I reloaded them with Unique and got the same result. If you pick them up as soon as they are shot, they don't even have to be cleaned to reload them! I'm guessing it's something in the alloy, but that's just a guess, nothing more.

  5. #15
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    Another way of thinking about what that bulge at the base of a seated bullet may indicate goes like this. When I load a cast lead bullet into a case having both a nice thick case wall and a case wall that's very close to being equally thick all the way around I observe a bulge in the case down by the bullet base that is pretty much the same all the way around. So what does this more or less equal 360° bulge mean?

    • That the bullet is equally crooked all the way around?

    • Better yet, is it even possible for a bullet to be equally crooked all the way around?

    If crooked means the bullet is pointed in a different direction than the case - I don't think so. All a 360° bulge means (to me, at least) is the case wall has nearly the same thickness all the way around. And I look for that bulge - no matter how complete - on all my handloads. it's a positive indication that the case has been stretched by the bullet and (because of that stretch) has a good grip on the bullet. If I don't see a bulge it means the case was not stretched sufficiently to have a good grip on the bullet. And because I don't like reloads with poorly held bullets, no bulge is a sign something is wrong.

    As previously mentioned, I've inadvertently attempted to seat a bullet crookedly a few times but never succeeded. All I got was a crumpled case mouth. I'm almost certain that once a bullet starts into the case mouth (without being caught on it) the bullet cannot help but get seated straight. This, of course, assumes the bullet seating plug is a good match for the bullet (and I'm not so sure that's even necessary).

    Regards
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 24th March 2015 at 16:11.


  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by niemi24s View Post
    Another way of thinking about what that bulge at the base of a seated bullet may indicate goes like this. When I load a cast lead bullet into a case having both a nice thick case wall and a case wall that's very close to being equally thick all the way around I observe a bulge in the case down by the bullet base that is pretty much the same all the way around. So what does this more or less equal 360° bulge mean?

    • That the bullet is equally crooked all the way around?

    • Better yet, is it even possible for a bullet to be equally crooked all the way around?

    If crooked means the bullet is pointed in a different direction than the case - I don't think so. All a 360° bulge means (to me, at least) is the case wall has nearly the same thickness all the way around. And I look for that bulge - no matter how complete - on all my handloads. it's a positive indication that the case has been stretched by the bullet and (because of that stretch) has a good grip on the bullet. If I don't see a bulge it means the case was not stretched sufficiently to have a good grip on the bullet. And because I don't like reloads with poorly held bullets, no bulge is a sign something is wrong.

    As previously mentioned, I've inadvertently attempted to seat a bullet crookedly a few times but never succeeded. All I got was a crumpled case mouth. I'm almost certain that once a bullet starts into the case mouth (without being caught on it) the bullet cannot help but get seated straight. This, of course, assumes the bullet seating plug is a good match for the bullet (and I'm not so sure that's even necessary).

    Regards
    I too have tried to load a round crooked and the case wall collapsed.
    I have experienced this with flat and beveled base rounds.
    To further confirm it's the case and not a crooked bullet....I sometimes get it with jacketed bullets, so sizing has nothing to do with it either.
    Beauty is skin deep but ugly goes right to the bone.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncviking View Post
    ...so sizing has nothing to do with it either.
    Do you mean bullet sizing or case sizing? As Nieme24s points out, the bulge is conformation that the case was correctly sized. Case sizing, not crimp is what resists setback.

  8. #18
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    If you want to see a truly spectacular bulge, get a Lee "U" undersized case sizing die: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/572...-45-acp-45-gap Mine has a 0.462" ID which is about 0.003" smaller than a standard die. When a nice thick and symmetrical Federal case is sized with the "U" die, its ID ends up being about 0.462 - 0.020 = 0.442". Then after flaring the case mouth using a Lee universal case neck expanding die... http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140...-expanding-die ...(for a case mouth flare without expanding the neck) seating a 0.452" OD cast lead bullet expands the case ID from 0.442" to 0.452" or about 0.010". So the case OD where the bullet is ends up being about 0.010" greater than just below the base resulting in a bulge or step of about 0.010 ÷ 2 = 0.005" on each side. And a 0.005" bulge is very prominent!

    But I don't use the "U" die on my good thick brass, thinking it will work those cases too much. Besides that, my Winchester and Federal housed reloads have a death grip on their bullets with a standard resizing die - better than all but one of the many commercial 230gn RN ammunition I've tested. I use it, instead, on my hundreds of chintzy thin old R-P cases for a better grip on the bullet - better, but not as good as with the better brass.

    Regards
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]
    Last edited by niemi24s; 25th March 2015 at 11:11.


  9. #19
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    My press is a Dillon Square Deal B. I have never pursued investigation of the die sizing dimensions, but I do know that it produces a nice bullet bulge in every case. The case mouth expansion prior to bullet seating is easily adjustable and only expands the very mouth of the case (unless the user "mis-adjusts" it). The crimping die can be (and is) set to just remove the bell. This press has loaded many, many rounds with no set back issues.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911jim1941 View Post
    Do you mean bullet sizing or case sizing? As Nieme24s points out, the bulge is conformation that the case was correctly sized. Case sizing, not crimp is what resists setback.
    Bullet sizing
    Beauty is skin deep but ugly goes right to the bone.

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