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Thread: Unburnt Powder?

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  1. #1
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    27th April 2013
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    Unburnt Powder?

    Hi

    I have a few questions: hoping you can enlighten me. Long time shooter, reloading now for one month.

    Xtreme bullet 230gr plated OAL .641 avg
    Body .305
    Winchester case .892
    My minimum C.O.A.L. 1.228
    Powder Hodgdon Universal
    Setting C.O.A.L. to 1.265 / charge 5.6 gr.
    Getting 723 - 750 fps
    Accuracy is 1.21" at 20 yds 24 rounds off hand.
    Happy with accuracy and velocity but !

    Question 1:
    Found a lot of unburnt powder on Chrony table, called Hodgon, they said to crimp the bullet tighter.
    I called Speer, they said to reduce the C.O.A.L. to increase the charge and to put a tight crimp.
    I've read some posts and literature and most say not to crimp, only to remove the bell / flare. At this time I'm only removing the flare enough to fit in the barrell and case guage. Should I be crimping? If I crimp how much.
    Question 2:
    Read that H. Universal needs higher charge for complete burn (more pressure). When I go up to 5.8 gr my groups open up by 1.5". should I set my C.O.A.L. to 1.275 per SAAMI to max spec to try and compensate.
    Question 3:
    I made some long dummy rounds to find out where the rifling is. They stop sticking at a C.O.A.L. of 1.348. So I should be within safe margins of the 1/16 - .063 rule. If I set my max C.O.A.L to 1.275?
    Question 4:
    Unburnt powder. If I want accuracy and lower velocity, do I just need to accept unburnt powder as the norm?
    Its not that I can't handle 850fps (recoil isn't a problem) just trying to get my split times down. But if I could get 850pfs and accuracy, all would be good.
    Looks like its been hashed over and beat up pretty good and I'm still a little bit confused, I guess. thanks
    Adam69.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    9th June 2004
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    Unless you do something to increase chamber pressure (More powder or deeper seating, but I don't think you can crimp .45 ACP hard enough to matter.) you will have unburnt Universal. Your load is at the Hodgdon maximum although Speer goes higher.

    How many rounds can you shoot before the gun fouls out and malfunctions?
    Unless that is a problem in your normal match or shooting session, if you are happy with accuracy (I sure would be.) and velocity, don't worry about unburnt powder.

    You could change powders to something faster like "plain" Clays and redevelop your load, looking for equal performance.

  3. #3
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    According to the X-Treme website, your bullet has a large initial ogive radius so your 1.228" minimum COAL is correct. But because it is a plated lead bullet (and not a much harder jacketed bullet) it can be loaded with the bullet in contact with the leade if the cartridge will fit in the magazine and feed OK. The 1/16" rule applies to jacketed bullets. Speer's advise to "put on a tight crimp" to avoid unburned powder is hogwash: tight crimps on bullets with no crimping groove do nothing but decrease the case's grip on the bullet and this should decrease pressure and increase the amount of unburned powder. You need "crimp" only enough to straighten out the case mouth and snug the case mouth up against the bullet:



    After de-flaring (I don't like to use the term "crimp") the case mouth OD with a 0.452" OD bullet in 0.0105" thick brass will 0.473". 0.473" is the SAAMI maximum case mouth OD for the 45 Auto cartridge and it should feed OK unless your chamber doesn't meet SAAMI specs.

    But I can't offer any advise on the accuracy and other unburned powder issues. Never used your powder.

    Regards
    When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind. [Lord Kelvin]

  4. #4
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    I don't think a little unburnt powder is a big deal, and seems somewhat normal/acceptable. If you're not using magnum pistol primers you may investigate that idea; but remember a change in the primer will change your chamber pressure.

  5. #5
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    Unburned powder is normal. I scrounge brass at the range to feed my reloading habit. This is an indoor range, and I go through the buckets of discarded brass looking for Winchester .45 Auto brass. It seems that every case I pick up dumps some powder as I turn it over to read the headstamp.
    Hawkmoon
    On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

  6. #6
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    One of my oldest .45acp loads was recommended to me years ago by an old gunsmith; 700-X shotgun powder.

    He advised me to "try it; it'll be messy (unburnt powder) but accurate."

    He was right on both counts.

    I shoot it today In IDPA when shooting my .45's; and it's never caused a functional issue yet. Just a few of the little powder discs around (seems the shorter the barrel, the more discs).

    I figure if it hasn't caused any problems over the last 20 years, it likely won't ever.

    Rick

  7. #7
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    It sounds like your starting load was pretty good. I've had the same issue with Unique (very similar powder) at lower charge levels. I don't know how much getting the nose closer to the leade will really help a 45acp's accuracy; unless you are a terrific bullseye shooter, I doubt you could discern the difference.

    I'd try a shorter COAL; just reference the manuals and be safe. You might also try raising your pistol up straight in the air prior to each firing (just to see if you get improved burn) ... likely wouldn't want to do that all the time, but it would be an interesting test, as it would place the powder closer to the primer more uniformly.

  8. #8
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    Unburned powder is common with all powders, I have yet to see a 100% burn of pistol or rifle powders in the 40 + years I have been shooting and reloading. Now, that's just my observation, there may be a powder I have not used or observed that will have a 100% burn.

    If I read your post correctly you are using 5.6grs. of Universal with a COAL of 1.265. I am going to go against the grain (no pun intended) with three suggestions, and try one before you try the other. 1) Change your COAL to 1.228 with the same powder charge. 2) Use a magnum primer, CCI or Winchester. 3) Do both changes i.e. COAL and primer. Check your FPS with each and compare with previous readings and observe for amount of unburned powder and compare to before the changes.

    I believe you will find less powder residue and an increase in FPS and maintain your accuracy. I have done the above many times without any problems, but remember, this is just a recommendation based on my results and may not be similarly duplicated by others for what ever reason.

    Be safe
    Dave
    Maybe not the sharpest tack in the box......but not dull!
    Last edited by AOCM.RET; 4th May 2013 at 09:05.


  9. #9
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    9th September 2010
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    Unburned Powder

    I had the same problem so I moved to WIN 231 or IMR 700x and the problem went away. They burn faster. I`m loading for .45 & .380 either powder works great.

  10. #10
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    27th April 2013
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    Thanks for the responses
    New to reloading, I'm looking at everything close (cases & gun ) I never really looked at the debris before as powder/lead/copper/fouling etc too closely, only that it needs to be cleaned to keep the guns operational .
    I know that it was the bright brown flakes that stood out to me . I took apart other factory ammo (mag tech & pmp ) to see what the powder looked like, it is darker black & gray, more of a grain than a flake & this is what i'm used to seeing , SO UNBURNT POWDER TOTALLY NORMAL depending on volume ,all over the chrony & table with only 2 rounds, cant be good . If I wasnt using H.universal powder & seen the flakes I wouldn't have even questioned the debris just would have cleaned it.
    I'v done some more testing, if I keep the round moving at 800 fps or higher I get little to no unburnt powder . If I go any lower then 1.260 c.o.a.l the groups open up & if I go any longer then 1.275 they open up as well , so 5.8gr at 1.260 c.o.a.l or 6.0gr at 1.275 c.o.a.l work good for my trophy match, now to try this load in my carry gun & rest of my 45s .
    Thanks Adam69

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