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Thread: 1911 hammer down with chamber loaded is safe for series 80?

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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjkuleck
    All I can say is...watch our YouTube video:


    The pistol was dropped muzzle down in free fall by releasing a string. No guidance was used or needed.

    Walt
    Thanks. I'll check it out.
    "A grip safety is just another excess moving part. I have never known one to prevent an accident, and moreover, it is difficult to postulate a circumstance in which it might." Jeff Cooper

  2. #12
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    If you think the impact velocity from a fall from waist high can cause a discharge, imagine what it is for us motorcycle riders!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickB
    He decided it was aerodynamics affecting the gun as it fell.
    Rick, please listen to Walt. I've been saying for years that it can't be done (make the 1911 fire by dropping it on its muzzle), but I know when to shut up when the experiment proves the theory, as precisely as Walt's tests did.

    The pistol can fire, and it will without a firing pin safety.

    And for the original poster, if you do not feel comfortable with Condition 1 carrying (cocked and locked), then Condition 3 (chamber empty, hammer down) is the best choice. Cocking the hammer requires some very fine motor skills, which do not exist when you are looking at a gun pointed at you, or a knife. Pulling the slide back to load the pistol is much easier to do in socially unpleasant situations. Practice the "Israeli draw" and you will be fine.
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org
    Last edited by John; 4th September 2012 at 07:23.


  4. #14
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    I agree with John that cocking the hammer requires lots of skill; obtained by lots of practice. Hopefully building muscle memory. BUT, training is different than real life stress situations. I would be cautious of "over gripping" the pistol with your finger on the trigger in a stressed situation. Not a cool deal when your other hand is busy racking the slide.

  5. #15
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    The problem is not so much carrying chamber loaded and hammer down, it's lowering the hammer with a loaded chamber. You have to have the trigger pulled and control the lowering of the hammer with your thumb. One slip and the gun fires, and the slide comes back and maybe breaks your thumb, so something gets hurt out of both ends.

    Thumb cocking the hammer is actually the least dangerous part because the trigger isn't pulled at that time, and if the hammer slips it likely will be stopped by the half-cock notch, and if it's a Series-80 pistol the firing pin lock is still engaged.

    If you don't trust condition 1, just carry it for a month with an empty chamber and with the hammer cocked and safety on, and see if the hammer ever drops on you.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpelle
    Thumb cocking the hammer is actually the least dangerous part because the trigger isn't pulled at that time, and if the hammer slips it likely will be stopped by the half-cock notch, and if it's a Series-80 pistol the firing pin lock is still engaged.
    I don't think danger of a discharge is the main issue, it's more to do with actually having the motor skills needed to allow you to thumb-cock, while you're half-awake, someone you don't know is in your house, having designs you don't like about those you love the most.

    Even so, thumb cocking may be relatively easy, IF we're strictly talking about a 1911 with a spur hammer and GI sights. But have you tried thumb-cocking a 1911 with a Commander-style hammer and worse still, an overhanging Bomar (or any rear sight with a vertical serrated face, placed as far back as possible)? Lowering the hammer of one of these isn't exactly enjoyable, either.

    If I had to choose between that and cycling the slide (from condition three), I think I'd go for the latter... but going back to the nasty 'awoken in the middle of the night' scenario, condition 3 assumes you have ready use of two hands... which is one heck of an assumption to make, when you don't even know if you'll be standing up, so we're back to condition 1.
    Too many people miss the silver lining because they're expecting gold.
    M. Setter

  7. #17
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    Recently, I was looking in the manual that came with my Colt, and one thing I noticed, it mentions three modes, rather than the usual conditions: Mode 1) completely unloaded, for storage & transport, 2) loaded mag, empty chamber, hammer down or 3) loaded mag, loaded chamber, hammer back & safety on (with all-caps, bold disclaimers about mode 3) as being Colt's only recommended modes of carrying a 1911. I can't find what I did with the manual after looking at it now, but IIRC it specifically mentioned NOT to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber.

  8. #18
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    If a 1911 falls onto a solid surface and hits straight down onto the muzzle from a sufficient height, it'll fire unless it's equipped with a firing pin blocking mechanism.

    The problem is that the drop tests are skewed, and staged in such a way as to guarantee that the pistol lands straight onto the muzzle. In a real-world drop, the gun is much more likely to land with the muzzle up than down...which is why the grip safety was adopted. Back in the day of heavy steel triggers, landing upside down presented the risk of the trigger releasing the sear, and holding it long enough to miss the half-cock. The Army ordnance board wasn't all that concerned with a discharge into the ground. Landing muzzle up and discharging in the direction of horse and rider was a real consideration.

    Since dropping the gun is more likely to happen while unholstering it, a more realistic test would be to drop it in that manner to allow rotational torque and angular momentum play a role. Try it on a padded surface and observe how frequently the gun lands on the muzzle. I think you'll find that it doesn't do it very often, and even on the instances that it does...the firing pin's momentum isn't linear, making a discharge about half as likely...again, depending on the height of the drop.

    As far as lowering the hammer on a hot chamber...yes...it carries some risk. The trick to doing it safely is a matter of knowing how and being careful. Basically, it entails not getting in a hurry. After all, Browning designed all his "hammer" guns to employ the half-cock as a safety position...and that meant lowering the hammer.

    You don't pull the trigger and try to catch the hammer. That almost a guarantees a discharge sooner or later. You get control of the hammer first...and then pull the trigger. You keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and you maintain control of the hammer all the way down. You also don't do it in a rush or when you're distracted. You give it your full attention,the same as you do when using a chain saw or a straight razor. Practicing the move with an empty pistol or rifle is also a good idea.

    I've often said that if the day comes that I don't have the manual dexterity and/or the presence of mind to lower a hammer without endangering myself and the dogs...I'll sell all my guns and take up golf.

    Bottom line:

    Is gun. Gun not safe.
    Last edited by 1911Tuner; 3rd October 2012 at 04:31.


  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
    I've often said that if the day comes that I don't have the manual dexterity and/or the presence of mind to lower a hammer without endangering myself and the dogs...I'll sell all my guns and take up golf.
    Yeah, that will be the day!!!!
    John Caradimas SV1CEC
    The M1911 Pistols Organization
    http://www.m1911.org

  10. #20
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    Going further...

    I've also never subscribed to the notion that Condition 2 is little better than carrying an empty gun. In fact...depending on the situation...Condition 2 actually makes a lot of sense.

    Back in the day when I did a lot of backwoods activities on three and four-wheelers...I got tangled up in a lot of the terrain. Dirty, muddy, filthy terrain. With the hammer down on a hot chamber, the rectangular gap in front of the hammer was closed off from the elements, and it keeps the lockwork from being fouled with mud, dirt, and other debris while still allowing one-hand operation.

    Would you rather be a half-second slower in readying the pistol in an emergency...or a half-second quicker with a gun in your hand that won't fire?

    A full-flap holster with the hammer down offers maximum protection from not only the elements, but from the bumps and knocks associated with such activities. Slower still...but still operational.

    Incidentally....

    The darling of the gamer/custom crowd...the "Lowered and flared" ejection port is also a sizeable pathway for all kinds of crud to get under the barrel, and prevent its dropping out of the way of the slide. This can make for a single-shot pistol when you need all the ammo available in a hurry.

    And finally, the ability to detail strip the gun without tools may not be an important consideration when the gun is carried under one's suitcoat in the big city...but it could well mean the difference between having and not having a functional pistol when it becomes fouled with all the stuff that it encounters way out in the boonies.

    Just things to consider.
    Last edited by 1911Tuner; 3rd October 2012 at 05:19.


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