My M1911A1 w/photos

If you would like to look at a glaring error in R. L. Wilson's "The Colt Heritage" look in the back of the book at the Model 1911 serial numbers. He gives the serial number range of the Union Switch & Signal as 958101 to 1088725 when the actual range is 1041405 to 1096404. He has it wrong on both ends. As I mentioned before, incorrect information has a way of being repeated. I don't see that it is nit-picking to correct information that is wrong, and the corrections had nothing personally to do with you. I don't recall anyone on the board that has not had a post corrected, and if I post something else that is incorrect I would expect to have it corrected.

Johnny, Scott...

What are your opinions of Ty Moore's serial numbers list?


OJ,

Scott & Johnny are two of the more knowledgeable collectors here.

Dan:

I just took a real quick look at Ty's list, and found a couple minor errors.
I'll try to look closer and report anything else back.
For now:

He lists Springfield Armory's last serial number as 127998. That should read 127978. I think that is a simple typo.

He shows Ithaca 1441431-1471430 as their last full 1943 range. It is actually Ithaca's first predominantly 1944 range. There are some exceptions (1441433-1441437 listed on p.121 in Clawson's 3rd Edition that are Nov. 5, 1943 shipped pistols. Ty doesn't show those... but that's pretty insignificant unless you have one of those few pistols.

Another possible mistake I see in both Clawson's book and on Ty's website is having to do with Ithaca's 2nd contract in 1943 (1208674 to 1279673). Both Clawson and Ty show the first 1944 pistol in their lists as 1235000. Ty credits Clawson on his site, and I therefore assume this may be based on Clawson's list in the back of his books.
However, on p. 120 of Clawson's 3rd Edition in the listing taken directly from the actual Ithaca shipping records, the first 1944 shipped Ithaca pistols were the 5000 shipped to the OSS on Jan. 11, 1944 in the serial range 1208766-1243294.
** You'll note that the OSS serial range is much larger than 5000 numbers. That's because pistols were still not being shipped in consecutive numerical order at this time. So there is a much broader range of serial numbers in that 5000 pistol shipment... overlap.
Ithaca started shipping lots of consecutive numbered pistols on May 24, 1944; however, some shipments were still out of sequence. See Clawson's p. 122.

I'll have to look into the 1235000 number being listed as the first 1944 range in the 2nd Ithaca contract. That is not what the actual Ithaca shipping records seem to indicate.

One must bear in mind all lists do not report the same way, or report the same things. Clawson notes at the bottom of his list that Colt and Ithaca serial numbers are based on their shipping records, and all other pistols' serial numbers are based on government procurement records.

Assembly dates are recorded in the records at Colt's, but assembly dates mean very little to most military arms collectors. The arms only have military significance when they are shipped to or procured by the government. Some arms laid around the factories for various reasons, including repair, prior to shipping. There is at least one noted example listed in Clawson's book... a JSB Colt shipped on Sept. 18, 1945, yet assembled in Oct. 1944. That's still a 1945 pistol as far as most military collectors would be concerned.:)

Contract dates are something else to consider, but they have little significance in many cases because contracts were often awarded in previous years to the pistols' actual production and shipment to the military.

I'll try to report back once I've gotten an explanation of the Ithaca serial number ranges in question listed in Clawson's book.

But bottom line... Ty's list is basically a good list with perhaps only a few minor mistakes. If we determine there is a mistake, I'm confident Ty will update his list.

Thanks very much Scott!

Okay... here we go. I researched the Ithaca records some more, and spoke with Chuck Clawson about how he arrived at the numbers in his serial list at the back of the book on pp. 144-145.

The +/- 1235000-1279673 range he lists on p. 145 as 1944 guns within the 2nd Ithaca contract (1943-1944) including 70,917 actual shipped pistols (of the 71,000 contract amount) is an interpolated range for quick reference based on the actual Ithaca shipping records, partially included in the book on pages 116-127.
The actual complete Ithaca shipping records printed out on 8-1/2"x11" paper consists of (5) binders, each 2" thick. So that wouldn't have been very practical to try to include in a pocket collector's guide.;)

The highest numbered 1943 pistol in the 2nd contract is in fact 1238979, shipped Dec. 31, 1943 (p.120).
The lowest numbered 1944 pistol in the 2nd contract is 1208701, shipped Apr. 18, 1944 (p. 121).

There is a considerable overlap of serial numbers in the 1943-1944 pistols in this particular (2nd) contract that spans from Nov. 1943 to Apr. 1944.

+/- 43,121 pistols within the 2nd contract were shipped in 1944.

The lowest serial number in the entire (1943-44) 2nd contract (1208674) was shipped Nov. 11, 1943.
The lowest serial numbered 1944 pistol (1208701) in the 2nd contract was shipped Apr. 18, 1944... and they were only 27 numbers apart.

Mr. Clawson recalls that he subtracted the +/- 43,121 pistols from the last number (1279673) of the 2nd contract and arrived at the approximate +/- 1235000-1279673 1944 serial number range he lists in the book for the 2nd contract. The actual number I came up with when I did the math was 1236552. So I think I'm pretty close to how he might have figured it.
Had he listed the actual lowest 1944 number (1208701), it would have made matters all that much more confusing than they already are, because many readers only refer to the serial number list and fail to read all the specific information included regarding the serial number overlaps and the shipping records on pp. 116-127 in the text sections of the book.

I believe Mr. Clawson has done as much as is possible by giving us a serial list for quick reference, and by providing specific information in the text of the book which will allow someone to take a specific serial number and closely determine when the pistol was shipped and where.
The Ithaca shipping records are not 100% complete, as some were lost or destroyed over the years in storage at the National Archives.

**There are (5) pistols (1441433-1441437) specially noted as shipped Apr. 24, 1944 in the 3rd contract on p. 121 that are listed as duplicate numbers of earlier pistols shipped Nov. 5, 1943.**

I know this may be difficult to understand, especially without the 3rd Edition book in front of you for reference. But it does make sense, and further shows the degree of research that went into including this information in the book for us to use.

Well done sir!
A hearty thanks to you Scott, and Mr. Clawson also.