Serial Number

OD,

I'd sure like to see more pics of your 1913/14.....

The BATF # may work from the Federal aspect, if they still do issue replacement serial numbers after the fact. However, there maybe a State problem in that those laws usually read removed or altered. At best it becomes an old shooter which could ending up costing the owner far more than it is worth.

While it is not the case here (it's a Model of 1911), there are documented Model of 1911A1 pistols that lack serial numbers, never having had them applied. These are the so-called "Lunchbox Pistols," assembled from parts (including the frame) smuggled out of the production facility.

Prior to The Gun Control Act of 1968, serial numbers were optional. Thus, since a "lunchbox" pistol never had one, it didn't fall under the defacement or removal provisions of the law.

"ATF" serial numbers are applied by application to the BATFE office local to the pistol. I'm not where I can access my reference as to under what conditions such a serial number is assigned by the BATFE, however.

The advice to refer the matter to the original vendor is the wisest course. How they let an unmarked pistol out, unless a lunchbox pistol, is, of course a matter for further investigation.

Regards,

Walt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bgiven

OD,

I'd sure like to see more pics of your 1913/14.....

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Sure, this is all I have currently. The late Bill Adair did the restoration.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...M1911sideI.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...1911sideII.jpg

For a while there was an Ithaca making the auctions that was advertised as a "lunch box special" with a letter from BATF stating this. The pistol had all the appropriate markings, but no serial number. BATF blew this one as the pistol was just another defaced pistol, and was no lunch box special.
The only true lunch box pistols I have seen were not completed pistols, as they had to be stolen as incompleted parts during production and assembled later.

This whole discussion just has me in awe...
You mean to tell me that a GOV agency would apply an after the fact serial number to knowingly stolen equipment or components?
Seriously, think about it, that just blows the mind...

OD,

Thank You for sharing the pics. No doubt Bill was the master, when it came to military 1911s. I would guess 1913 just due to the numbers probability. Have you ever ran any of the inspector markings to see if they will help you date it ????

Bob

I am curious, even with a BATFE issued Serial #, how do you get around State Laws?

Most of the states make possession of either a removed or altered serial # illegal. I doubt that any allow a re-stamped # as BATFE may do. Also, some states have Consumer Protection Laws that prohibit the removal of any identifying marks placed on an item by the manufacturer.

The 1911 is more likely to be discovered during a Roadside Safety Check than a BATFE roadblock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bgiven

OD,

Thank You for sharing the pics. No doubt Bill was the master, when it came to military 1911s. I would guess 1913 just due to the numbers probability. Have you ever ran any of the inspector markings to see if they will help you date it ????

Bob

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You're welcome Bob.
The only real investigation I've done was the Walter G. Penfield stamp, Bill said he thought the pistol was a '13. I normally refer to it as a 1913 rightly or wrongly. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TJH3781

I am curious, even with a BATFE issued Serial #, how do you get around State Laws?

Most of the states make possession of either a removed or altered serial # illegal. I doubt that any allow a re-stamped # as BATFE may do. Also, some states have Consumer Protection Laws that prohibit the removal of any identifying marks placed on an item by the manufacturer.

The 1911 is more likely to be discovered during a Roadside Safety Check than a BATFE roadblock.

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I don't know what to tell ya, the pistol was picked from a load of weapons slated to be destroyed by an Allen County IN. Deputy Sheriff, who was friends with the local ATF agent. There have been quite a lot of LEOs look at the pistol and none have ever mentioned anything about it, but maybe they aren't as familiar with Indiana code as you are.