I have been shooting rimfire bullseye for a few years and I am ready to buy a 1911 and move into the world of 2700 matches. I am leaning toward a Les Baer. A couple of dumb questions:

1) What type of ammo do bullseye shooters generally use? 185-200 grain wadcutter?

2) Should I buy a wadcutter pistol or a more generic pistol (e.g., Premier II)? Pros and cons?

3) If I install a slide-mount scope on a non-wadcutter pistol, will "full power" ammo damage the scope and/or mount?

4) What is "full power" ammo?

Thanks for putting up with dumb questions but we all have to start somewhere!

1) What type of ammo do bullseye shooters generally use? 185-200 grain wadcutter?
Most commonly, 185 and 200 LSWC. Some use 185 JHPs at the long line.

2) Should I buy a wadcutter pistol or a more generic pistol (e.g., Premier II)? Pros and cons?
There's not going to be a lot of difference in the quality of gun. The wad model will have a reduced power recoil spring - a $7 part. From most vendors, the wad gun should have an option for a scope mount, either frame or slide. Front strap checkering might be another difference...I'm not that familiar with the PII, other than they shoot well. Prices for similarly equipped guns of either model should be very close and with the 1.5" "guarantee," should have the same accuracy.

3) If I install a slide-mount scope on a non-wadcutter pistol, will "full power" ammo damage the scope and/or mount?
If you set it up as a wad gun, why would you shoot 'full-power' ammo? If you change recoil springs to handle it, then it won't damage the gun or any good red dot. The majority of shooters use UltraDots as they're lifetime guaranteed and fairly competitively priced. If it damages the mount, then it wasn't installed properly.

4) What is "full power" ammo?
In 45, usually refers to hardball ... std milspec was 820 - 850 fps with a 230gr jacketed RN.
/Bryan

Thanks, Canuck

So the only real difference between a "regular 1911 and a "wad gun" is the recoil spring?

I wouldn't classify the PII from Baer as a 'regular' gun. It's more tightly fitted than production line guns and I mentioned that with the extra fitting (or just good luck in the 'smith's shop) of the 1.5" option, you'd essentially have a wad gun. I know a couple of folks doing very well with either Springfield Operators or TRPs, both higher end guns. They're defintiely not a standard SA Loaded model.

A classic wad gun is just a very closely fitted 1911, often with an aftermarket barrel, usually with a high hold beavertail and often an undercut trigger guard and a checkered front strap. Depending on the shooter's preferences, you then add either long sight radius adjustable sights, usually with a Patridge front, or a red dot.

As the Baer's tend to be quite closely fitted anyway (they don't sell in the $650 - 900 range), the difference between a PII with the 1.5" and their official "wad" gun is probably just the recoil spring....perhaps the trigger job also - 3.5#s is legal min for a wad gun. No idea what a typical PII comes with but I'd bet 4 - 4.5 and crisp.

My own custom build wad gun was done by a smith that tests all his barrels before selecting which go into the wad vs hardball vs return to vendor pile. He told me at that time (2006) that he was using 3 - 4 of every 10 barrels he received. Mine shot a little over an inch in the tester and 1.5 in the finished gun - from a ransom rest - no way I can hold 1.5 at 50 yds
It happens to be from Baer, who gets his barrels from Kart.
/B

Before you make any decisions or choices of a 1911 for Bullseye shooting, you might want to join this forum and ask your questions: http://www.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/
The Bullseye-L forum has been around for a long time and the members are very dedicated to their sport.

__________________
HH

Note that that forum is a list serve, not a threaded, interactive forum as this is.

The archives (at least since the huge server failure a few years ago) are here...
http://groups.google.com/group/Bullseye-L-Archive
/B

This site has lots of info:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

The barrel on the wad gun may be "throated" to feed SWCs
You could check with Baer on this.

The wadgun will have a 3.5lb trigger.

The slide mount rail with full loads? I'm not sure. I have read, "not a problem" and also read "don't do it"? The dot will be ok, but it may shear the mount screws? Has anybody out there tried this?

Rock River Arms has a new steel slide mount that also has sights. I was looking it over at the NRA convention and asked if it would hold up to hardball ammo and the reply was that it might not. I'd still like to try one of them on a 1911, most of my shooting isn't hardball anyway. I was thinking somewhat of a Limited Match with that rib on it instead of the usual sights.

__________________
Lynnie, "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal. "
- Albert Camus

He asked about a wad gun (2700s) - by definition, not full loads. In fact, at the short line, many are below commonly recognized loading manual minimums.
/B

Thanks everyone for your replies. A couple of updates:

I asked Les Baer what the difference is between one of their wadcutter guns and a Premiere II (guessing that springs were different) and Brenda from Les Baer replied, "You are correct the spring weights are different and the lock up time is set up differently for the lighter loads." I think the trigger is a little different as well (3.5# crisp versus 4# crisp). She said nothing about throat.

I also had a nice chat with John from ProLoad about slide mounts versus frame mounts - suffice it to say that he is not a slide mount fan, though he has never used one. He seemed to be turned off by the whole concept, citing changes in slide weight and recoil performance as issues. I told him that my impression from reading this forum and others is that slide mount are pretty popular and people seem to like the affect on recoil.

The slide versus frame mount point may be moot if I want a pistol any time soon. John said that Les Baer is pretty far behind on orders and a slide mount would be a special order (months). He doesn't have any LB bullseye guns in stock but he has some with frame mounts on order and expects them in a few weeks. I still like the idea of a slide mount scope so now I need to figure out how to find one or just bite the bullet (pun intended) and special order one and wait.


Part of the confusion that I have caused here (and with the people at LB) is because I didn't understand that 2700 gun = wad gun. That was supposed to be one of my original questions but I didn't ask it artfully. You guys and John at ProLoad set me straight so now I know that in fact what I need to buy is a wad gun.

BTW, I am on the Bullseye-L list, and I will probably ask them some annoying questions too.