Please use this thread to discuss our review of Rob Pincus book and DVD, entitled Combat Focus Shooting, as reviewed in our E-zine.

Thanks

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John Caradimas SV1CEC
The M1911 Pistols Organization
http://www.m1911.org

Thanks for the review John. I find his training philosophy (outlined by you) to make perfect sense...working with the body, "nature's way is always the best", etc....and i'm curious to know more about the technique.
I may just have to buy his book .

I do imagine some will argue though, that an individual can be properly trained, and if done so correctly will use the learned technique in a crisis situation. Having no personal training of any kind i cannot comment, but can say that i've read this to be the case.

Coming from the "untrained" school, i'm very interested!

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Eli

John,

Thanks for the feedback and review!

I'm proud that you're offering the book and DVD through you site and I look forward to more feedback and discussion with the members here!

I'm glad that you found the information helpful.

-Rob

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Combat Focus Shooting Book & DVD
Combat Focus Podcast!

Rob, I think I understand a little better from John's review what we were discussing in the other thread about having some sort of index.

Is your system an evolution of the term I have heard "finding your natural point of aim"?

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"The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

Garrett,

It could be seen that way.

I often talk about the way humans use tools intuitively after practice... such as a hammer. You don't need to build a brace to swing a hammer...

While golfers sometimes practice with a PVC contraption that allows them to work on having their swing remain in one plane... they don't use it on the Tee-box.

Most people learn to write by tracing or with lined paper, but eventually develop the intuitive ability to use pen & paper together without an artificial guide.

Luckily, putting the gun in (and parallel with) your line of sight relies on naturally existing hand-eye coordination and the instinct to put your hands in front of your face when you are threatened.

So, you could say "natural point of aim", but I wouldn't use that phrase to mean that you have a "subconscious sight picture" or other similar terminology. I find such phrases to simply be rationalizations by those who are so invested in "sighted fire only" dogma that they have to find some way to articulate intuitive unsighted shooting ability in terms of a sight alignment of some kind.

-RJP

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Combat Focus Shooting Book & DVD
Combat Focus Podcast!

Well, perhaps I am invested in "sighted fire" (without the "only"), but I can't help circling back to the thought that sometimes one's instinctive reaction is not the correct response. In fact, it seems that one element of training and practice is to overcome instinctive reaction and to learn to automatically do instead what is appropriate.

For example, when driving a car, one's instinctive reaction in the event of a skid is to apply the brakes. We know that is the wrong thing to do; and so, if one is lucky enough to get some training in high speed driving, one learns to stay off the brake, turn into the skid and, under some circumstances, even gently apply some throttle.

I remember my first time driving a Formula Ford through Turn 8 at Laguna Seca -- a left-right downhill "S" turn. When hitting the apex of the first half of the turn, you can't see the track. My "instinct" said to back off the throttle. But of course, backing off the throttle under side loading while going downhill is a good way to lose the back end.

Some of the more complex tasks we come to do automatically, without conscious thought, such as writing in a straight line on unruled parper, aren't really instinctive or intuitive, they are, rather, reflexive. They are not natural, innate responses we are born with. Rather, they are habitual responses developed and conditioned by training and practice.

DVC

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adapt, improvise, overcome
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
"One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

Front Sight - Front Sight - Front Sight - Press

I have not had a chance to read the book yet, but I was a little put off by the article about "Combat Focus" from last months issue of SWAT magazine.

So as not to impugn the good name of Mr. Pincus (or appear to be a flaming troll ), I have been awaiting return correspondence from the editor of SWAT.

I am sure the book and video would be much more in depth than that article, and hope to check them out some time.

Best,
~BoS

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"Who Dares Wins" - SAS

Rob, I think I get it. Where that term came from is an old book I have on learning to shoot. The "natural point of aim" referred to finding the grip and body positioning that brought the gun to the target every time. As the text described it, when you find your "natural" state, you could close your eyes, grip the gun, and bring the gun to the target. When you opened your eyes, the sights would naturally fall in the general area you would have put them if you were using the sights.


I don't see it as an either or proposition. I think one compliments the other. If one finds their natural movements, even if they "choose" to use the sights, that natural movement will let you get a sight picture quicker. Thoughts?

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"The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

Frank,

2 things:

Writing without lines NEVER becomes automatic (as you noted) and instinctive reactions never go away. Learning to work as well as we can with instincts is can be referred to as "intuitive".

You have demonstrated a significant interest in this topic in this thread and elsewhere, I'd love to have you read the book, especially the section on the Balance of Speed & Precision (a portion of which, Bosco is apparently referencing above). Going back to my two points above, whether instinct is "right" or not isn't the point. It never goes away and shooting a gun will never be automatic in the technical sense... it requires congnitive processing. Call in intuitive, call it automated, call it easy..... but don't call it automatic. Instinct (lowering the center of gravity when startled, focusing the threat, etc) is truly automatic. Keep in mind (this can be the hard part) CFS is not about being the best "shooter" in any absolute, isolated way.. it is about being the most efficient shooter you can be in the context of a dynamic critical incident... that means working as much as you can with the instincts and truly automatic reactions. One facet of this is learning to not take your eyes off the threat (which takes time an cognitive thought/energy) when you don't need to.

You might be interested in another analogy I use often in class:
Have you ever lived in a major city or other area where good parallel parking skills are required? If so, you know how easy it can become, once you know the concepts and you know your car. Compare that to a Formula 1 race car driver who has to make hairpin corners at high speeds. Both are highly developed levels of skill with a vehicle, but the open wheel race car driver may NEVER need to parallel park and the guy who lives in the city may never need to corner at over 45 mph..... both are skilled with a car, however. The difference between mechanical target shooters and defensive shooters is similar.

Garrett,

Yes, that is the point of going to full extension in, and parallel with the line of sight. If the Balance of Speed & Precision dictates the use of sights, your shooting position is consistent and the transition should be easy. CFS is certainly not hip shooting, just as it is not all about unsighted fire.

BoS,

Looks like Bosco beat you to claiming that title anyway.....

Meanwhile, please share your letter to the editor an Denny's response and let us know which article you are talking about... the one I wrote on "Combat Accuracy" or the one that Flint Hansen wrote earlier in the year about the Combat Focus Shooting Instructor course that he attended. I'd rather not hazard a guess as to which article or what bothered you, but I'm glad that you're interested in exploring it more.

All,

Thanks again to those of you who are taking the time to ask questions and discuss. That is where true development is refined.

-RJP

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Combat Focus Shooting Book & DVD
Combat Focus Podcast!