If most gun fights last 3-6 rounds in roughly the same amount of time in seconds, why do we spend so much time laboring over which sight, what type of inserts, etc. when the sights more or less disappear in a stress fire situation and we "default" to point shooting ?

I realize sights are almost mandatory if you wish to have ANY enjoyment at the range, but if some of us (me) are obsessed with owning the ultimate slim, big bore CCW on the planet, then sights are one thing to eliminate/diminish or at least relegate to a trough-type channel on the top of your slide.

Am I so full of it that my eyes are brown?

What are your thoughts ? What am I missing ?

Out to about arms reach or just slightly beyond, you can probably get buy with point shooting. If the target is facing you squarely and standing still. The problem is that in a real fight the target is moving and may only present a small area for you to aim at.

Without some sort of index, you will likely miss your target. Read any article on police shootings and look at the number of misses, even at close range. You'll see this proven time and again.

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"The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

Well that's not necessarily true.

With the proper training and practice, it's amazing how fast one can acquire a flash sight picture and hit accurately. Learning those techniques and developing proficiency in the use of those techniques also gives you the flexibility to deal with targets at pretty much any distance. Yes, most gun fights are close range affairs. But what do you do if you've focused all your training on engaging targets 5 to 7 yard away; and the one time you really need to use your gun, it's the one in a hundred case in which you must engage an armed threat 10 to 12 yards away and partially behind cover?

If you train at various distances to quickly use a flash sight picture, you will be able to deal with the usual cases as well as the one in a hundred and one in five hundred situation. Also as Garrett points out, your target may be moving. And, if you're doing it right, you will be moving too. In those situations, the ability to use the sights properly and quickly becomes pretty useful.

The idea behind the flash sight picture is to focus on the front sight quickly and align the sights only as precisely as warranted under the circumstances. At distances on the order of 5 to 7 yards, when the target is the center of mass, a rough alignment will be sufficient to assure good hits (as long as you have good trigger control). As distances increase or the target shrinks, the alignment needs to be more precise. But with training and practice you can develop a good sense of how good is good enough and be able to make instantaneous judgments.

Consider that the top IPSC and IDPA shooters are very fast and accurate, and they use their sights. Now there's the perennial debate about whether they could do that in actual combat when someone is shooting back at them. I don't think we need to go there. It should be enough to note that the top IPSC and IDPA shooters, even with relatively stock guns, have mastered the skills of shooting very fast and accurately using sights, and the more that one practices those skills, the more likely one will be able to apply them naturally under even great stress.

There is a standard IPSC exercise called "El Presidente." Three standard IPSC targets are set up 1 meter (or yard) apart 10 meters (or yards) from the shooting position. The shooter starts facing up range (back to targets) with his hands held above his shoulders. His gun is loaded and in his holster (in condition 1 if it's a 1911 or BHP). On the audible start signal, the shooter turns and engages each target with two rounds, reloads, and engages each target again with two rounds. I've seen good shooters complete this exercise with 12 center hits, in the Limited Division, in 4 to 6 seconds; and I guarantee you that they were using their sights.

Now I would agree that some, perhaps many, folks will default to point shooting when confronted with an emergency. I'm suggesting that is neither necessary nor desirable. With good training and practice one can learn to use the sights appropriately and quickly and become much more effective in the event of a serious encounter.

DVC

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adapt, improvise, overcome
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
"One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

Frank,

Thank you for your detailed response. I have posted a couple questions as of late, and your responses have been informative, with a teachers heart. You truly are a mentor. I'm grateful.

K71BL, Frank does exert a lot of time and energy sharing the knowedge and experience that he has worked diligently to attain. The fact that the time he spends in here is completely voluntary and without compensation speaks volumes about his character.

You will find other good folks in here who perform in a simular manner, that is the reason why I am here.



Rich

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Certified NRA Instructor Pistol & Shotgun
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"There Is No Greater High Than Defeating Armed Felons" Rich-D

Aw shucks guys.

And seriously, I think that we have quite a fine crew here -- a lot of experienced and knowledgeable members who freely share that experience and knowledge to the enrichment of all of us. And that includes you Rich.

DVC

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adapt, improvise, overcome
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
"One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

I think Frank is dead on in his post. I do think we should always use sights when time and distance allows. Sights simply verify muzzle alignment and in order to hit small targets during dynamic movement sights are needed. The top shooters all use sights, hard sight focus or flash sight picture again depending on distance and time.

Not to say there is not a time for point shooting (oh I hate that term) or gun indexing if you prefer as I do. I always try to get the gun up and in my face as much as possible so that I can use my sights. As for the sights I prefer they are the 10-8 with the rear opened up to .150 and the front being a Novak white ringed tritium.

Regardless of sights, time and distance trigger control is more inportant.

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I have twice looked at a potential assaiant over my gunsights, and in both instances, the only image I remember with any clarity was the lint on my front sight. Both incidents ocurred at just over contact distance, and I was still lining those sights up. Train, train, train!

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"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid."- Ronald Wilson Reagan

"Mmmmm.....tasty burglar......"- Tonka the Large Dog

You are missing the fact that not everyone defaults to point shooting. Many of the advanced tactical trainers stress focusing on the front sight. That's difficult to do under stress if you can't see it.

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Hawkmoon
On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside

That's an excellent reason to consider entering some form of competition, even if they are small, informal events such as my range hosts on Thursday evenings. So far I have been doing an excellent job of pushing all the other shooters up a notch in the standings, holding down last place with a fierce tenacity. My shooting isn't that bad, but I have an aversion to dropping $40 magazines on a concrete floor and my times take a real hit because I pocket the empties during magazine swaps. But it is comforting to know that I don't need a full minute to line up the sights for each shot.

It's also comforting to know that, although my times may not be great, I kill a lot fewer hostages than the top shooters.

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Hawkmoon
On a good day, can hit the broad side of a barn ... from the inside