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Thread: Links to some practice and training drills available on the 'net

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  1. #21
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    I believe the point that was attempted to be made by both Lurper and Tueller, was that you should assess the situation. And if done properly, if a B.G. is threatening you bodily harm, or others around you, you should already have your gun drawn. I'm not quite sure the exact time, but I'm pretty sure even a monkey can pull a trigger faster than one can run 21 feet.

    This, in my opinion, can be easily done. If you see someone with a knife, or, as some of you said, a 2x4, pipe, whatever, and I'm pretty sure one is smart enough to realize that a B.G. isn't attempting to build something, or cut a cake, situational awareness would lead you to believe that he intends to do harm with what he has. Whether it be a 2x4 or a machete, you should realize, that this person means to do you harm, and draw your pistol. Given, you don't necessarily have to shoot someone because they threaten you with a knife at 21 feet, but if they start running at you, you are prepared to fire a shot, or multiple shots, if needed.

    This, I believe, was the point that was trying to be made.
    Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits.

  2. #22
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    I'm not quite sure the exact time, but I'm pretty sure even a monkey can pull a trigger faster than one can run 21 feet.
    You'd be surprised. The numbers are pretty close.

    Given, you don't necessarily have to shoot someone because they threaten you with a knife at 21 feet, but if they start running at you, you are prepared to fire a shot, or multiple shots, if needed.
    The thing to understand is Tueller's drill is not a "rule" as it has often been dubbed. 21 feet is an abitrary distance he chose to show how quickly the bad guy can be on you. At 21 feet, even if you do get some shots off chances are the bad guy will still be on you and you will get hit, cut, etc unless you employ tactics that will help.

    The time to cover the distance is less than 3 seconds. Even if the thoracic area (heart, lungs) is hit. The brain has enough oxygen to keep the guy on his feet and thinking about doing you harm for at least 5 seconds.

    You need to make time and distance. That is the point.
    "The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

  3. #23
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    I agree garraettwc. In my view whet Tueller teaches us is:

    [1] To properly assess the degree of threat. The degree of threat presented by someone 7 yards +/- away with a contact weapon must not be underestimated.

    [2] We must not only shoot. We must also move.

    DVC
    adapt, improvise, overcome
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
    "One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

  4. #24
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    Distance + Cover = Greater chance of survival.

    I would be willing to bet that 5 seconds is increased if that person is on some sort of stimulant drugs.

    I believe this situation would find use for the mozambique drill that Lurper is so good at... 2 to center of mass, one to the head in under 1.5 seconds.


    Doesn't matter how much oxygen their brain has if their brain is splattered out of their skull....
    Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits.

  5. #25
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    I mentioned the Tueler Drill (I think "Tueller Demonstration" is a better name) way back when because I thought it does what garretwc said- It shows how fast things can happen.

    People try to twist it into a shooting range drill, but I see it as an illustration to prove a point.
    A lot of people think they are safe from blades or impact weapons unless they are within arms' reach of an attacker.
    Even when they read "21 feet, 21 feet" over and over, it doesn't have the same impact as seeing it done. I think if more people saw it demonstrated, then the next time they see a "suspicious looking person" in their path, they would be more apt to cross the street rather than take a step or two to the side and say they are giving them a wide berth.
    "I like marksmanship and think it is a good judge of character. A good shot is almost always a good man, because good shooting calls for self-control, and self-control is one of the important aspects of a good man." Jeff Cooper

  6. #26
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    Distance + Cover = Greater chance of survival.

    I would be willing to bet that 5 seconds is increased if that person is on some sort of stimulant drugs.
    Correct on both counts.

    I believe this situation would find use for the mozambique drill that Lurper is so good at... 2 to center of mass, one to the head in under 1.5 seconds.


    Doesn't matter how much oxygen their brain has if their brain is splattered out of their skull....
    True, but a head shot is easier to do in training than in reality. The head is a small and moving target. Also keep in mind that a head shot doesn't always equal a brain shot. There was a news story going on a while back about a gang banger who had a 9MM piece of evidence lodged in his forehead that the prosecutor was trying to get removed.
    "The 1911 was the design, given by God to us through John M. Browning, that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and it's true now." - Col. Robert Coates commanding, U.S. Marine Corp Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (DET 1)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry in IN
    People try to twist it into a shooting range drill, but I see it as an illustration to prove a point.

    A lot of people think they are safe from blades or impact weapons unless they are within arms' reach of an attacker.
    Many people have also twisted it into thinking that the "21 feet rule" says that 21 feet is some magic safety distance, and if an attacker is 21 feet away, he is not a threat, and that is not what the demonstration showed, nor is that what Tueller stated.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrettwc
    ...True, but a head shot is easier to do in training than in reality. The head is a small and moving target....
    Also, if I'm doing it right myself, I'm moving as well -- preferably diagonally away from the path of my attacker. A reliable head shot becomes very difficult under those circumstances.

    DVC
    adapt, improvise, overcome
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan
    "One should shoot as quickly as one can -- but no quicker.", Jeff Cooper

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbiev
    Many people have also twisted it into thinking that the "21 feet rule" says that 21 feet is some magic safety distance, and if an attacker is 21 feet away, he is not a threat, and that is not what the demonstration showed, nor is that what Tueller stated.
    Yep. I think if they actually SAW it done (right), they would get it.
    "I like marksmanship and think it is a good judge of character. A good shot is almost always a good man, because good shooting calls for self-control, and self-control is one of the important aspects of a good man." Jeff Cooper

  10. #30
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    I may be repeating myself here, but I'm too lazy to read my previous post. Tueller himself says that his main point was that officers should draw their weapons at the first hint that anything may go wrong ( so they save the time needed to draw). The actual time it took for an "average adult male" to cover the 21 feet was 1.5 seconds. This was then used to come up with all of the talk about the "Tueller drill", "21 ft. rule", etc. by people other than Tueller. Tueller also said that a good goal was to be able to hit the target twice in under 1.5 seconds.

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