Pistol Review: Cabot Guns CGI/Classic

[Rio Vista Slim]

The pistol test of the new Cabot Guns CGI/Classic has been posted in the M1911.ORG E-zine. You may read it http://ezine.m1911.org/showthread.php?p=536#post536

Please use this thread to discuss the article.

[Alabaster]

Awesome. I like everything I saw there. The lock box/ display case, the straight forward pistol, the box elder grips, etc. That is NICE! Though, as a friend, I'm sorry to see you have to test another Cabot gun. You poor guy....

[WVPreston1911]

Excellent review Steve, I've been waiting on that, just to read your thoughts on it. While I'd find it hard to spend that kind of money, guess I can add it to the dream list.

[Art1]

Definately coming across as 1st class all the way, from my way of looking at it. Somthing to be said for having the finest. If I had the dollars, I'd be happily sending them to Cabot. ;) Fine review.

[AFMan]

Thanks for the pics and info.

I'd like it better without the square-ish frame contours at front-strap and dust cover.

That dust cover is gonna be an issue with fitted leather, much like the middle-year Springfields were when they had a similar contour.

A Colt contour of both surfaces would be better, IMO.

[Combat Controller]

How much more will they charge for a pistol that has features other than GI? While I understand custom work can be expensive, I have a bit of sticker shock; and this from a guy with two Wilsons and two Custom Jobs from Hank Fleming.

[Rio Vista Slim]

How much more will they charge for a pistol that has features other than GI? While I understand custom work can be expensive, I have a bit of sticker shock; and this from a guy with two Wilsons and two Custom Jobs from Hank Fleming.
The prices for the "RangeMaster" and the "Jones 1911" are listed on Cabot's web site. As far as the custom work that Rob mentioned to me today, I haven't a clue.

I can fully understand the "sticker-shock", and mentioned this in my review. If you are interested, I'm sure you could give Rob a call, and he would go over the various options with you.

EDIT
To those of you who have read the gun review, and responded in this thread, my sincere "thanks" for your interest.

[Combat Controller]

Thanks. I took a look, it seems they are all in that range, I guess I was more looking to customizing vs custom features I suppose. This is more properly a question for them as the site is not very clear on this subject. I emailed them and will report back here!

[dV8r]

Thanks for a well written review, a fun easy read. Very nice pistol.

[patriotic]

Thank you Steve. Very interesting.

[Jim Watson]

Phew, it works, what a relief.
Don't you just hate those magazine articles where they have to make excuses for guns that don't shoot?

[Traxxis]

As always, a great review Steve.

I am delighted to see that they opted to go with Kart barrels... a fantastic choice, and I really believe it will help in the long run as most consider Fred Kart's to be among the best of the best.

Pistol aside... I think the thing I am most impressed with is the case... it is simply gorgeous. Contemporary, yet classic. A fine choice, and very fitting.

Grips look great.

All of the edges on the front of the pistol seem to be broken well, however they look a little harsh on the top of the frame tangs. Nothing major though.

The only things I would like to see a little more attention given to are the machine marks on the very front of the slide, around the bushing, and a little more dressing to the thumb safety so that it matches the contour of the frame when in the "fire" position rather than protruding passed the radius (at least that's the way I interpret the photo... but it is entirely possible my eyes are playing tricks on me).

The one thing that I was really looking forward too are measurements and spec'ing of the parts. I am intrigued by their clone technology and would like to see just how consistent it really is. Alas, we can't have it all! :) Ideally, that would include a couple different pistols as well to test the interchangeability as well.

Thanks for the review Steve, and thanks to Cabot Guns for providing a specimen.

Oh... last question... what is the other end of the bushing wrench used for??? Do they offer different style bushings, similar to EGW's?

[Hunter]

Excellent review my friend.

[Red Mike]

Great review. Highly anticipated, I'd venture to say.

[DAT85]

Excellent review and glad you got a chance to shoot one :appld:

I wish I had been as fortunate during my visit to the factory!

DAT85

[John]

Don't you just hate those magazine articles where they have to make excuses for guns that don't shoot?

Jim, our review protocol indicates (and we make sure that the manufacturers know that) that if a pistol has any issue when we try it, we'll report the issue. You can check our Umarex Regent review. We of course give the manufacturer the choice to either send us another sample, or to take back the one we have in our hands and fix it. But rest assured that if we see a problem, you will read about it in the review.

[jblackfish]

VERY nice review. Enjoyed going through it - reading it will probably be as close I get to one of these beauties. Thanks for doing such a thorough great job on it.

[OD*]

Well done, Slim.

[Spyros]

Great review Steve.

[Rio Vista Slim]

The one thing that I was really looking forward too are measurements and spec'ing of the parts. I am intrigued by their clone technology and would like to see just how consistent it really is. Alas, we can't have it all! Ideally, that would include a couple different pistols as well to test the interchangeability as well.
The measurement tools I have here at home (calipers, micrometer) are rudimentary, at best. While I took several pictures of the frame and slide disassembled, without the readings of an actual precise measurement tool to verify what you're seeing, these would only have been "window-dressing".

During my visit to Penn United Technologies and Cabot Guns, I saw how these pistols are made. I was also impressed with the integrity of everyone I met, and their commitment to excellence. I truly believe that I could have taken a non-blued slide, and it would have fit a random frame in the same manner as the multitude of finished slides did, when I was invited to do this in Ray Rozic's office.

[Frank]

Fine article, Steve. Well done.

If Cabot guns were available in California, I might have to think about going back to work. :eek:

DVC

[kenhwind]

Good review. Nice looking pistol for sure, good clean lines. I saw a few things that I would question and these have been mentioned.
A bit out of my budget but so is a Cadillac, BMW and a Mercedes.

[nutz41911's]

Congratulations on scoring a great first look at this 1911 and giving us a great article/evaluation. The comment about the front sight filling the entire rear notch of the rear sight isn't "nit picking" in my opinion. Sight acquisition on a combat pistol is a critical element and if the rear sight notch isn't wide enough then that is a big issue. Perhaps Cabot Guns will narrow the front sight or widen the rear sight in the future which would be an easy fix. The price point of these guns is a dead issue for me due to living in California. I doubt that Cabot will bother with the protocol involved in selling these guns in California so I won't ponder about buying one.

[Vintage Racer]

Steve,
Thanks for the great job of reviewing this fine looking pistol. Your tech is amazing.

I have a few stupid questions. ;)

Field-stripping the pistol is accomplished in the tried and true method of all standard configured 1911s, with the only exception being the aforementioned need to place the slide out-of-battery prior to utilizing the bushing wrench.
Sorry, I am not sure what you mean here.

When tolerances of .001 of an inch are discussed, the actual tolerance between the rails of the frame, and the corresponding cuts in the slide measure out to .0005 of an inch, on each side. In many instances, that tolerance is closer to .0002!
Wow!

So, what is the target tolerance of the Cobat? And how does this compare with a lower priced pistols (like your Commander)?

How are these pistols sold? Do they have local dealers, or are they only available from the Cabot factory?

Doc

[OD*]

The comment about the front sight filling the entire rear notch of the rear sight isn't "nit picking" in my opinion.Nor in mine either.

[Rio Vista Slim]

I have a few stupid questions. ;)
I don't consider this a stupid question, and must first reply with "Oops!"
The "field strip" procedure for a standard, GI-configured pistol is:

1) After making sure the pistol is unloaded, and the magazine removed, depress the recoil spring plunger (or cap) below the front of the barrel.

2) Turn the barrel bushing (when facing the front of the barrel) clockwise, and carefully release the recoil spring cap. Remember, this cap is under spring pressure and could fly into your face, or away into space.

3) Line up the take-down notch in the slide with the slide stop/release.

4) Push the slide stop/release pin from the opposite side, and remove the slide stop/release.

5) Remove the slide from the frame by sliding it toward the front of the frame.

6) Remove the recoil spring and guide from the slide, rotate the barrel bushing counter-clockwise until the notch in the bushing is in line with the notch in the slide, and remove the bushing.

7) Lower the barrel link, and remove the barrel from the front of the slide.

So, what is the target tolerance of the Cabot? And how does this compare with a lower priced pistols (like your Commander)?
As stated in the "visit" article, as well as the gun review, the maximum tolerance between the slide and frame is .001 inch. This means most of the tolerances will be LESS than .001 inch. To answer the second part of your question, I can only compare by eyesight and feel. The differences between the two pistols mentioned is like daylight and dark.
How are these pistols sold? Do they have local dealers, or are they only available from the Cabot factory?
To order a pistol, you must contact Cabot Guns at the phone number listed at the bottom of either the "visit" review or the gun test.

[AFMan]

Steve,

Thanks for the explanation about Cabot's machining tolerances.

I look at your pictures and still find it difficult for me to reconcile a company dedicated to precision with the way the rear of the frame and slide on your example fail to line up.

At a base gun price point of $4450, do you think Cabot would do well to pay a bit more attention to the external details?

If there is an open line of communication between the company and you, perhaps a mention of the "nits" would be in order.

[Rio Vista Slim]

Steve,

Thanks for the explanation about Cabot's machining tolerances.

I look at your pictures and still find it difficult for me to reconcile a company dedicated to precision with the way the rear of the frame and slide on your example fail to line up.

At a base gun price point of $4450, do you think Cabot would do well to pay a bit more attention to the external details?
AFMan,

I want to apologize for the photographs, because what you "see" as a mis-matched slide and frame is actually a photographic anomaly. I am, at this second, cleaning the gun for shipment back to Pennsylvania. Remembering your previous post on this matter, I checked the rear of the slide and frame with regular eyesight, and then with a magnifying glass. Their is no mis-match! The frame and slide match up perfectly. I'm extremely sorry that my poor photographs caused this mistaken impression.

http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss238/Onufriyenko/reviews/Cabot%20Guns%20CGI%20Classic%20Pistol%20Review/IMG_3871.jpg

To emphasize my point, I just took this photograph of the rear of the pistol. While I admit that the ejector may not be blended in a manner to which you're accustomed, you can see that the slide and frame are even.

If there is an open line of communication between the company and you, perhaps a mention of the "nits" would be in order.
The Cabot Guns representative is monitoring this discussion, and he was among the first to view the pistol test when it was published. I'm sure we'll be hearing from him, at some point, during these discussions.

Thanks for your observations.

[CabotGuns]

Thanks. I took a look, it seems they are all in that range, I guess I was more looking to customizing vs custom features I suppose. This is more properly a question for them as the site is not very clear on this subject. I emailed them and will report back here!

Hi Combat Controller,

We are able to offer several customized options. You are correct in that we don't show that information on our web site. We'll have an updated web site in about a month. I appreciate your patience and thanks for your interest.

Btw, if you sent an e-mail it may have been lost in a spam filter. I checked around and have not found the request. Apologies.

[CabotGuns]

As always, a great review Steve.

I am delighted to see that they opted to go with Kart barrels... a fantastic choice, and I really believe it will help in the long run as most consider Fred Kart's to be among the best of the best.

Pistol aside... I think the thing I am most impressed with is the case... it is simply gorgeous. Contemporary, yet classic. A fine choice, and very fitting.

Grips look great.

All of the edges on the front of the pistol seem to be broken well, however they look a little harsh on the top of the frame tangs. Nothing major though.

The only things I would like to see a little more attention given to are the machine marks on the very front of the slide, around the bushing, and a little more dressing to the thumb safety so that it matches the contour of the frame when in the "fire" position rather than protruding passed the radius (at least that's the way I interpret the photo... but it is entirely possible my eyes are playing tricks on me).

The one thing that I was really looking forward too are measurements and spec'ing of the parts. I am intrigued by their clone technology and would like to see just how consistent it really is. Alas, we can't have it all! :) Ideally, that would include a couple different pistols as well to test the interchangeability as well.

Thanks for the review Steve, and thanks to Cabot Guns for providing a specimen.

Oh... last question... what is the other end of the bushing wrench used for??? Do they offer different style bushings, similar to EGW's?

Hi Traxxis. Thank you for the comments. The front of the slides are indeed hand polished to remove machine marks as is the bushing. The bushing fit is engineered to be very tight and thus I suspect some marks result from the bushing wrench. We are now in the design process of an acrylic bushing wrench that will not create scuffs.

With regard to measurements we employe coordinate measuring machines (CMM) throughout the construction process. In fact, we offer individual CMM Report (Dimensional Analysis Reports) showing precise dimensions of the frame and slide. This in our view is the ultimate documentation and nothing like it has ever been offered for a gun. We believe in providing verifiable data that one can independently validate. The accuracy of our CMM machine is up to 40,000,000th of an inch. The maximum deviation we allow between each side of the frame and slide specified at 0.0005 inches is 20,000,00th. I'll be posting a sample report on out web site within two weeks. They reports are quite extensive.

At the NRA show at our launch we had a demonstration called the Cabot Challenge. We have a table full of frames and slides and the public are invited to pick up any parts and fit them together and then swap them around with any other part. The response was excellent. The most common thing we heard all weekend long was "Wow". If you have a chance to visit us at any of the trade/gun shows listed on our coming events I would encourage you to also take our Cabot Challenge.

[CabotGuns]

specimen.

Oh... last question... what is the other end of the bushing wrench used for??? Do they offer different style bushings, similar to EGW's?

Regarding your last question, the other end of the bushing wrench fits our proprietary designed bushing shape which is made to follow the countours of the slide. We do this on our more modern style 1911's, the Jones and the RangeMaster. You can see photos of the bushing design on our web site, www.cabotguns.com

[CabotGuns]

We wish to extend our sincere thanks to Steve for all the time and effort he has made to visit our complex and evaluate our pistol.

The M1911.org forum has been our public debut as far as a review. We're proud to be part of this forum and look forward to sharing developments as we move forward. We value your comments and will consider all constructive feedback. Thank you for your interest and input. We love exploring ideas... so please keep them coming - we're listening.

[Combat Controller]

Hi Combat Controller,

We are able to offer several customized options. You are correct in that we don't show that information on our web site. We'll have an updated web site in about a month. I appreciate your patience and thanks for your interest.

Btw, if you sent an e-mail it may have been lost in a spam filter. I checked around and have not found the request. Apologies.

Thank you, I sent it yesterday at 6:23 with the header "questions". I asked if there were custom options and what they were and the cost associated with them. As an engineer I can encompass the amount of effort that went into your offering. As a businessman I can understand that you are trying to recover your development costs as well as putting a premium on your product. I may differ in opinion on how to approach a specific market but we all can only draw from our own experiences.

Thank you for the time you have taken and more-so I am very impressed with the tone of your responses so far in the other thread I took time to read last night. I wish you all success.

[C1911]

Great review Slim. That's what I love about the M1911.ORG; integrity. Many reviewers base their review on their own personal experiences and reference points; which of course can produce results over a very broad spectrum. But, what I've come to expect from our M1911.ORG reviews, regardless of the experience base it's drawn from, is the truth. Thanks so much for documenting and sharing your experience.

I'd also like to echo you’re thanks to The Downing’s and our Sponsor LuckyGunner.com - As viewers of reviews, we often don't consider the ever rising costs associated with a simple pistol test. But, when you factor in range time, transportation costs, ammo costs, etc…it's certainly not a trivial expense and most worthy of acknowledgement.

[Rio Vista Slim]

C1911,

Thank you for you kind words. Your remarks are greatly appreciated.

I'd also like to echo you’re thanks to The Downing’s and our Sponsor LuckyGunner.com - As viewers of reviews, we often don't consider the ever rising costs associated with a simple pistol test. But, when you factor in range time, transportation costs, ammo costs, etc…it's certainly not a trivial expense and most worthy of acknowledgement.
I agree with you, completely. LuckyGunner.com has come through for me on several occasions, and I appreciate them more than words can express.

As to the Downings; having someone in the gun business you can depend on makes all the difference in the world. Local gun shops were plentiful in my youth, but are few and far between these days. We must all do everything possible to keep these small businesses open.

[Rio Vista Slim]

With regard to measurements we employe coordinate measuring machines (CMM) throughout the construction process. In fact, we offer individual CMM Report (Dimensional Analysis Reports) showing precise dimensions of the frame and slide. This in our view is the ultimate documentation and nothing like it has ever been offered for a gun. We believe in providing verifiable data that one can independently validate. The accuracy of our CMM machine is up to 40,000,000th of an inch. The maximum deviation we allow between each side of the frame and slide specified at 0.0005 inches is 20,000,00th. I'll be posting a sample report on out web site within two weeks. They reports are quite extensive.
During the course of the review, I took over 150 photographs of the CGI/Classic. Many of these were taken using the Macro-setting on my camera. As mentioned in the article, detailed photographs can be achieved, but those photos also show debris which is oft times invisible to the naked eye.

So, a "pox" upon so-called micro-fibre cloths!!

http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss238/Onufriyenko/reviews/Cabot%20Guns%20CGI%20Classic%20Pistol%20Review/IMG_3812.jpg

This photo was taken, and rejected, because of the cloth fibers, dust??, and such. However, it does show the exceptional detail of the slide stop cut-out, the frame rails, and the extreme dimensional accuracy of the machines used at Penn United Technologies.

[Spyros]

I have no idea what you're talking about Steve, the picture looks fine to me! :D

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/rekladan/IMG_3812a.jpg

[jblackfish]

I have no idea what you're talking about Steve, the picture looks fine to me! :D
Someone knows how to edit pictures! In either case it's a nice closeup showing off the detail. :up:

[Rio Vista Slim]

I have no idea what you're talking about Steve, the picture looks fine to me! :D

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/rekladan/IMG_3812a.jpg
Someone knows how to edit pictures! In either case it's a nice closeup showing off the detail. :up:
Well Spyros, you have proven to jblackfish and me that an investment in "PhotoShop" might definitely be in my future!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Spyros]

Photoshop? Who needs Photoshop? I have no idea how to use that thing! What you see above is the result of about 4-5 minutes work in good-old MS-Paint!

(check the time difference between Steve's post and mine)

[C1911]

http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss238/Onufriyenko/reviews/Cabot%20Guns%20CGI%20Classic%20Pistol%20Review/IMG_3812.jpg
However, it does show the exceptional detail of the slide stop cut-out, the frame rails, and the extreme dimensional accuracy of the machines used at Penn United Technologies.
That is indeed a rather incredibly clean cut. With or without a stray fiber, that pics is revealing and should absolutely be posted. Thanks for uploading it.

[Rio Vista Slim]

Thank you, Spyros.

Photograph without the "fur".

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_3812.jpg

[CabotGuns]

That's a great idea of showing close-ups of the parts. We'll have to get our photographer to do that so we can add them to our web site.

[Rio Vista Slim]

That is indeed a rather incredibly clean cut. With or without a stray fiber, that pics is revealing and should absolutely be posted. Thanks for uploading it.
Thank you, C1911!
That's a great idea of showing close-ups of the parts. We'll have to get our photographer to do that so we can add them to our web site.
Just tell your photographer it requires some special lighting, and NO micro-fiber cloths! ;)

[Vintage Racer]

The "field strip" procedure for a standard, GI-configured pistol is:
Steve,
I understand the normal "field strip". But you stated:

...with the only exception being the aforementioned need to place the slide out-of-battery prior to utilizing the bushing wrench.

I am just a rookie. ;) But I don't understand the "need to place the slide out-of-battery prior to utilizing the bushing wrench".

This is an exception from the normal procedure?

We value your comments and will consider all constructive feedback.
Thanks,
Your new pistol is very impressive. Thank you very much for making it available.

I am a bit confused. What is your target on your slide tolerances?

Due to modern machine technology, is there an ultimate end of strict tolerances between the slide and pistol stock? At some point, mechanical physics will interfere with the large forces from the recoil action?

Sorry, I am just asking to better understand this stuff.

Thanks,
Doc
;)

[Rio Vista Slim]

I am just a rookie. But I don't understand the "need to place the slide out-of-battery prior to utilizing the bushing wrench".

This is an exception from the normal procedure?
The barrel bushing on the CGI/Classic (and numerous other "high-end" guns I've either tested or shot over the years) fits so tightly on the end of the barrel, when in battery, that the slide must be moved to a position out-of-battery to loosen the bushing enough to allow it to turn.
^
^
^
That is the LONGEST sentence I've ever written, and my old high school English teacher must be doing cartwheels in his grave. :D

I'll let the Cabot Guns representative answer your other question.

[CabotGuns]

Steve,

Due to modern machine technology, is there an ultimate end of strict tolerances between the slide and pistol stock? At some point, mechanical physics will interfere with the large forces from the recoil action?

Hi Doc, this is a very interesting theoretical question and one with which we did consider. While building a slide to frame fit of 0.0005 inches or 5/10,00th of an inch per side is exceeding tight by gun industry standards this is not particularly difficult for the talented machinists and grinders employing technology developed at Penn United. To put this in perspective the space between each side of the frame to slide fit is 1/6th of a human hair.

We can build an even tighter gun but you obviously need to have a tolerance to allow movement. Our focus group and research and development team concluded the fit we have specified provides outstanding accuracy while not giving up reliability after the gun was heated through the firing of several hundred rounds. Our testing at this tolerance was to shoot the gun with 1,000 rounds as fast as it could be loaded where it became scorching hot to the point it was difficult to handle and would burn skin at the touch. We did not encounter a single failure during this test. Contributing factors to the reliability is the consistency of our tolerances as well as the hardening and treatment of the steel.

Intuitively, at some tighter tolerance there is a point where a fit is too tight but we have not determined that ultimate amount. At least not yet.

[Justin]

Very nice write up Steve.

[tekarra]

If you have a gap of 0.0005" per side, what tolerance do you use to achieve that close of a fit? With that close of a fit, what lubricant do you use?

With your rapid fire test and the heat which it generated, it is surprising the slide did not bind to the frame. Can you advise what steels you use for the slide and frame as I find the whole concept interesting.

[BadaBing11]

Great question tek. I was just wondering the same thing as I was reading this thread. Got to the very last one and you already asked.

[jblackfish]

..............With your rapid fire test and the heat which it generated, it is surprising the slide did not bind to the frame.........
I find it surprising too. Not knowing much of about metallurgy I suppose that when the metal gets that hot and expands, it all expands to the point that it maintains a similar gap when hot. What else could explain it? ...but if the top side and bottom side of the slide's groove both expand and the top and bottom of the groove that the slide rides on expands too, why is there no seizing up? (Does that make sense? It does to me and that may be a problem in itself...my simple mind at work. I may not understand where the .0005 gap is IS.)

[Rio Vista Slim]

I'll let CabotGuns answer the technical aspects of your questions.

As to the lubricant I used, it was Gun Butter. I took most of my photographs before shooting the pistol, including the picture of the field-stripped pistol. Prior to my shooting tests, I lubricated the gun.

The macro photograph showing the tight slide and slide stop window tolerances was taken after the shooting tests were completed.

[Justin]

This photo was taken, and rejected, because of the cloth fibers, dust??, and such. However, it does show the exceptional detail of the slide stop cut-out, the frame rails, and the extreme dimensional accuracy of the machines used at Penn United Technologies.

That is some beautiful machine work!

[John]

With your rapid fire test and the heat which it generated, it is surprising the slide did not bind to the frame. Can you advise what steels you use for the slide and frame as I find the whole concept interesting.

Why is it surprising? I mean is the slide/frame rails area getting so much hotter during rapid fire? I do not think so.

[Hawkmoon]

Why is it surprising? I mean is the slide/frame rails area getting so much hotter during rapid fire? I do not think so.
But they DO get hotter during rapid fire. In their 10,000 round torture tests, both Todd Jarrett (Para) and the guy in the Philippines who did the same thing with an Armscor 1911 both reported that the entire pistol got so hot they had to wear gloves to even hold it.

[BadaBing11]

John, that has to be the reason.

I am a chemical engineer by training . Heat transfer is one of the things at the core of the curriculum. Now it has been a long long time for me, but in principle, the point of ignition would be the heat source. The gun is the heat sink. Since it is a point source of heat ( assumption it probably doesn't behave that way in real life) , a temperature gradient would be set up along the the length of the gun. If all that is true, in theory we would have a vairable teperature profile along the length of the gun. So at a micro level it gets me to think that if this is so, we would have different expansion from point to point along the length of the gun. If the temperatures are high enough ( and this is where I think the theory falls apart. ) we would think fit would get tighter in some places vs others. So without doing the calculations, the principles lead to that hypothesis.

The other thing that may be happening here is that the metal is expanding geometrically in a way that keeps the tolerances the same. This may seem like a gimme to the laymen. But if you have ever bowled, think of this situation: I used to store my bowling ball in a warm place. Reason being is that the finger holes fit tighter when the ball was warm. If I left it in the trunk of my car during the winter, the holes were loose. So as it expanded and contracted , the holes got bigger and smaller. because the ball would expand and contract in all directions possiblle to the point where the fit would change.

Take that principle and apply it to slide and frame and we habe multi directional expansion of parts. Either the temperature difference isnt enough to make a difference, or someone (JMB) had true genius in taking that into considerattion. Me thinks it is some of both.

That is the best I can get without getting into the calculus of heat transfer ( like I could still do it... maybe in a years time :) )

In my experience real life does not always mimic classroom. Or I have just enough training to over think it.

Anyway, I probably have not explained what is really happening here, this is just my surprise. It is something that has puzzled me not only with the Cabots , but with other tight fit guns. To me this is the real challenge in the design and I am amazed that under such tight tolerances such as LB and Cabot, we don't see more galling.

Your explanation is the only one I can think of that would explain why we don't see more of that.

Other than that, there are a lot of other things I don't understand. I have this light switch in my house that I flip on and off and nothing happens. I got a letter from Germany yesterday that said "Hey, stop flipping that switch" :)

[BadaBing11]

But they DO get hotter during rapid fire. In their 10,000 round torture tests, both Todd Jarrett (Para) and the guy in the Philippines who did the same thing with an Armscor 1911 both reported that the entire pistol got so hot they had to wear gloves to even hold it.

Exactly my supposition Hawkmoon. That is why I was originally surprised. Now that you have confirmed my hypothesis, I am leaning back to JMB genius.

The math required to model this is way beyond my current capability. From my past experiences, I would expect the slide rails to expand( get thicker), and the slide grooves to get tighter since expansion is multi directional.

Back in my days designing chemical refining processes, There is a lot of consideration taken with equipment to account for expansion / contraction at high temperatures.

There is probably a more simple explanation, but I am scratching my head here.

I'm hoping one of the Cabot guys can turn this into a no brainer. It has to be less complicated than my mind is making it out to be.

[tekarra]

In post #47, the statement is 0.0005" clearance between the frame and the slide. I read this to mean the clearance outer edge of the rail and the bottom of the groove in the slide. As frame heats up a large amount of the expansion will be to the outside and as the slide heats up some amount of the expansion will be to the inside. The clearance is very small and it will not take much heat for the steel to expand and close a gap of 0.0005".

I am a metallurgist with a fair amount of machining experience and have done a bit of trouble shooting problems with turbines and reciprocating engines and compressors. I was hoping Mr. CabotGuns would add more comments and observations of the experience.

[Rio Vista Slim]

I was hoping Mr. CabotGuns would add more comments and observations of the experience.
As I'm sure he will, tomorrow morning when he comes to work. I know for a fact that the Cabot Guns representative checks this forum regularly. He called me on Friday to comment that this thread had once again become active.

The 10,000 round torture tests mentioned by Hawkmoon are the extreme exceptions to the rule. AND, Mr. Jarrett's pistol was still functioning at the completion of those tests.

However, your question pertains to why the tight tolerances of a Cabot pistol would allow the gun to maintain reliability during my 500 round test. I submit that 500 rounds (or thereabouts) doesn't generate enough heat to matter, especially considering that those shooting tests took well over two hours.

Remember, unlike Todd Jarrett, no one was loading magazines for the test pistol except me. :D

[CabotGuns]

If you have a gap of 0.0005" per side, what tolerance do you use to achieve that close of a fit? With that close of a fit, what lubricant do you use?

With your rapid fire test and the heat which it generated, it is surprising the slide did not bind to the frame. Can you advise what steels you use for the slide and frame as I find the whole concept interesting.

The tolerance variance we specify for our pistols to our machinists and grinders is no more than 2/10,000th of an inch or 0.0002 per side. Thus each side has the potential to vary by this small amount. The consistency of the rails and tangs coupled with our proprietary metal treatments do not call for more a nominal amount of lubricant.

With regard to the steel it generally falls into the 4140 classification, however, we do not use standard 4140. Our metallurgy department specifies it's own proprietary alloy content for the 4140 which is indeed extremely difficult to source. These factors mitigate expansion and contraction. The current fits are where we feel reliability will not be impacted. We could have easily have gone much tighter but you must allow for some tolerance. The technology employed flows from decades of tool and die experience where the study and understanding of contraction and extraction of metal has been extensively developed in-house as potential changes in tolerances cannot be allowed given the precision repeatable endemic to all that is produced at Penn United. There are electronic components that are built here where we literally argue about 5 and 10 millionth of an inch. PUT's Carbide division, which is the most sophisticated on the planet, works in light band tolerances.

To date we have been lubricant agnostic in terms of a recommendation.

[tekarra]

Thank you for your reply and I hope you will continue with similar technical posts.

[BadaBing11]

The tolerance variance we specify for our pistols to our machinists and grinders is no more than 2/10,000th of an inch or 0.0002 per side. Thus each side has the potential to vary by this small amount. The consistency of the rails and tangs coupled with our proprietary metal treatments do not call for more a nominal amount of lubricant.

With regard to the steel it generally falls into the 4140 classification, however, we do not use standard 4140. Our metallurgy department specifies it's own proprietary alloy content for the 4140 which is indeed extremely difficult to source. These factors mitigate expansion and contraction. The current fits are where we feel reliability will not be impacted. We could have easily have gone much tighter but you must allow for some tolerance. The technology employed flows from decades of tool and die experience where the study and understanding of contraction and extraction of metal has been extensively developed in-house as potential changes in tolerances cannot be allowed given the precision repeatable endemic to all that is produced at Penn United. There are electronic components that are built here where we literally argue about 5 and 10 millionth of an inch. PUT's Carbide division, which is the most sophisticated on the planet, works in light band tolerances.

To date we have been lubricant agnostic in terms of a recommendation.

Thanks Cabot Dude!
Whatever your secrets are deliver a most impressive end result. I'm feeling your purpose here. Ask the question "Why do you go through this level of technological depth?"

The answer is, "Because you CAN" . The pure science of what you do commands my utmost respect.

[Rio Vista Slim]

My thanks to Rob Bianchin, at Cabot Guns, for providing a few more close-up photographs of the fine work done by the technicians at Penn United Technologies.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/CabotFrameCloseupSMALL.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/CabotFrameSMALL.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/CabotSlideSMALL.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/CabotSlideView2SMALL.jpg

My apologies to Rob for taking so long to get these pictures posted. Today is the first time I've been by my home computer in two weeks.

[C1911]

My thanks to Rob Bianchin, at Cabot Guns, for providing a few more close-up photographs of the fine work done by the technicians at Penn United Technologies.
Impressive!

[DAT85]

Dave's polishing of the pistols is what brings a special touch to the CABOT line of 1911's.All of that hand polishing pays off.

Very impressive!

DAT85

[tekarra]

That is a beautiful pistol and excellent photography.

[daddyjim]

Ok I have been called many things including crazy; but I am shocked to find that when I called Cabot my call could not be completed. So it begs the question am I the only one who called? Please help me out all of you who ordered yours please provide me with a working phone #. I did email them and received an out of the office reply.

[DAT85]

Ok I have been called many things including crazy; but I am shocked to find that when I called Cabot my call could not be completed. So it begs the question am I the only one who called? Please help me out all of you who ordered yours please provide me with a working phone #. I did email them and received an out of the office reply.

Try calling 1-855 THE 1911.

I know that a lot of the staff is at a show in Germany currently,so maybe that is the problem ?

DAT85

[daddyjim]

Try calling 1-855 THE 1911.

I know that a lot of the staff is at a show in Germany currently,so maybe that is the problem ?

DAT85
Thanks DAT85
I should have posted the number I called it was 1-855-THE-1911. And the auto email reply did say they would be back from Germany next week. BTW I am thrilled they are in Germany showing them the greatest pistol ever made the all American M1911 (I employ many German engineers and love this mostly friendly argument)

[DAT85]

Thanks DAT85
I should have posted the number I called it was 1-855-THE-1911. And the auto email reply did say they would be back from Germany next week. BTW I am thrilled they are in Germany showing them the greatest pistol ever made the all American M1911 (I employ many German engineers and love this mostly friendly argument)


I will be sending you a PM shortly.

DAT85