Cabot Guns---Too Expensive for the average Joe!

[1911NIZER]

I understand the technology and craftsmanship and beauty that was put into these pistols but the average guy nowadays will have a tough time to fork out $$$ for these very expensive toys. I'd probably be scared to handle one of these puppies coz I might scratch the finish or put an idiot scratch by accident. These puppies were meant for the mucho dineros. That's just my opinion man!!! There are lots of other high end 1911s for a lot lesser dinero.

[11 Bravo]

I'm glad someone had the guts to say it! I looked at the 1911A1 clone, saw the price and fell off my seat. YMMV. :D

[WVPreston1911]

I totally agree, for a new company, their base pricing far exceeds anything I could afford or even consider purchasing.

[Rio Vista Slim]

The M1911.ORG E-zine staff is expecting a Test/Evaluation pistol to be delivered toward the end of this month. A thorough review (including pricing, accuracy, reliability, etc.) will be given in the E-zine, after completion of the evaluation.

Stay tuned!

[WVPreston1911]

Steve: Can't wait to read how it performs.

[boblenaere]

Here's one for just under 5 grand. Really, I don't think so. For that kind of $$$ it better do a whole lot more than just shoot.

http://cabotgun.com/better-than-custom-1911-pistols/jones-1911-precision-pistol/

:scared:

[Frank]

Things cost what they cost. There's a lot of very neat stuff out there that I can't afford -- but I still think it's nice that such things are being made.

A Patek-Philippe perpetual calendar watch, a Ferrari Enzo, a case of Grands-Echezeaux Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, etc., are all well beyond my reach. But I'm still glad such things exist. (I did taste the wine once -- many years ago -- incredible.)

DVC

[C1911]

Just like to extend a warm Welcome to Cabot Gun. No doubt, these are very expensive pistols and well beyond my reach. However, I'm looking forward to the EZ-Line review and hope they hit the mark with their targeted audience. In the meantime, here's to wishing Cabot much success. :appld:

[1911NIZER]

People are paying close attention and are wise shoppers too. I like the looks of Cabot guns, make no mistake, but, like me the average Joe will have to take out some chunk of money from my 401k if I decided to get one of those beauties someday.

[CabotGuns]

Hi all, we're please to be joining the forum. We understand our guns are not accessible to everyone and there are many good options for less money. Our goal is to re-imagine what is possible in terms of applying the state of the art manufacturing technology to a 1911, our favorite gun. Cabot Guns were built with no compromise as to cost. We'll be sharing much information in coming months as to what goes into making a Cabot Gun. We realize the quality of our guns is not needed or desired by all, but that's o.k. with us. We hope this forum will provide a productive dialogue in assisting us to build inspirational 1911's as we continue to build our portfolio.

[Hawkmoon]

I'd like to join in welcoming you to our forum, Sir.

[Frank]

... Our goal is to re-imagine what is possible in terms of applying the state of the art manufacturing technology to a 1911, our favorite gun. Cabot Guns were built with no compromise as to cost....Well put and a worthy goal. Welcome to M1911.Org.

Some beautiful guns that I can't buy here in California. Our Roster of Handguns Approved for Sale is saving me a fortune. :D :D If you'd like to really twist the knife, make a classic Combat Commander. :D :D :D

Beautiful pistols.

DVC

[sysanalyst]

Nice looking guns, great features, still need more info though... do these guns implement an 80 Series safety? What kinds of materials are used for the frame and slide? Are the parts mil-spec? Oh heck I just saw the pricing $$$$ :( , these things are out of my price range. I feel like I just walked into a black tie event wearing a t-shirt, jeans, and sneakers. Sorry... I'll go away...back over to the Armscor threads... :-)

[Frank]

On the Cabot website there's video showing detail stripping. It appears that the guns do not use a firing pin block. And I'd expect that the materials are top notch.

DVC

[T-TAC]

The frames look too square and blocky. Especially around the trigger guard.
The type on the side of the slide looks more like a "Billboard". But hey for $4000 you get Pachmeyer grips on the Rangemaster.

[Jason8844]

The M1911.ORG E-zine staff is expecting a Test/Evaluation pistol to be delivered toward the end of this month. A thorough review (including pricing, accuracy, reliability, etc.) will be given in the E-zine, after completion of the evaluation.

Stay tuned!

Steve,

Do we know who will be doing the review?

[Rugerismisticness]

I too would like to welcome your company.

Consumers will ask themselves "why should I get this over that", which I why I ask "What sets your product apart from Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, other high dollar 1911s with long running reputations?" I mean this question in the humblest mannor and it is not in anyway meant to be offensive or negative.

[CabotGuns]

I too would like to welcome your company.

Consumers will ask themselves "why should I get this over that", which I why I ask "What sets your product apart from Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, other high dollar 1911s with long running reputations?" I mean this question in the humblest mannor and it is not in anyway meant to be offensive or negative.


Hi, Rugerismisticness, thank you for your question and in no way is it offensive. In fact, you are asking a central question which in part spurred the genesis as to why we decided to build a 1911. Other high-end guns such as the fine brands you mention have to be hand lapped to achieve a good fit. Cabot Guns by Penn United Technologies are made without the need to hand fit components. We do this with proprietary technology we have developed over the past forty years which we apply to build sophisticated high tolerance components for the defence, nuclear and aerospace industries. This is the first time we have applied this technology to a consumer firearm. One benefit is that our components are completely interchangeable, something we call clone technology. At our debut a few months ago at the NRA show we had a display called the Cabot Challenge where we set out a table of frames and slides and consumers could randomly pick any frame and slide and assemble them to experience the clone technology of the parts and the precision of the fit. In addition to a new methodology of constructing components we also wanted to make them aesthetically beautiful. More details as to what has gone into developing our 1911’s will be coming soon. We see what we are doing as not necessarily competing with other guns but to simply offer something different and unique that not has been done before. It will take a few years to build the recognition that existing brands have earned. We just truly love and enjoy making these 1911's.

[ncviking]

Things cost what they cost. There's a lot of very neat stuff out there that I can't afford -- but I still think it's nice that such things are being made.

A Patek-Philippe perpetual calendar watch, a Ferrari Enzo, a case of Grands-Echezeaux Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, etc., are all well beyond my reach. But I'm still glad such things exist. (I did taste the wine once -- many years ago -- incredible.)

DVC
Uh Frank.....which one of those was the wine? :lm:

[Ric4509]

Welcome to the forum Cabot Guns!! Very nice pistols but very very expensive. The 1911 classic front strap is squared not rounded as well as the dust cover. I wonder why Cabot Guns decided to make it that way. No offense.

[kkramer673]

How does a company come out of nowhere and price its 1911s at almost $5K? No way I would spend that on a new company's pistol. I'd have to hear a lot of favorable comments from owners before I would make that leap of faith.

[wjkuleck]

How does a company come out of nowhere and price its 1911s at almost $5K? No way I would spend that on a new company's pistol. I'd have to hear a lot of favorable comments from owners before I would make that leap of faith.
I saw them at the NRA Meeting in Pittsburgh, and they are beautiful. However, I'm putting my $5K into a Cylinder & Slide (Bill Laughridge) Commemorative. You get something really, really different for the money.

Regards,

Walt

[T-TAC]

Clone technology? So let me get this straight, If I'm able to afford a $4000 Cabot 1911, I can take it apart and buy another $4000 Cabot 1911 and the parts will drop right in.
Dude! if I buy a $4000 1911 it ain't coming apart!
I gave some thought yesterday as to what would make a 1911 worth $4000.
If you look at the Heirloom precision site you can see it. These guys get Colts to look like one solid block of steel. Slides match up to frames perfectly. Almost with no line between them. This isn't easy as most people know factory Colts are nice, but not that nice. So there is considerable sweat and work involved with this.
A Production company like Wilson Combat or Cabot produce their own slide, Frames, etc. So all the specs are controlled from the start and getting this type of precision should be much easier and less expensive.

[Rugerismisticness]

Why does the uber expensive GI rendition have a flat trigger and fat front strap and dustcover? Besides that, it looks good at 700$.

[Rio Vista Slim]

When I first got into this "shooting hobby" over forty years ago, Colt (and guns produced during and after the first World War) were the only 1911s available. My 1967 edition of The Shooter's Bible lists a brand new Colt Gold Cup National Match pistol at $140.00! Every thing is relative!

As I previously stated, a Cabot Guns 1911 will soon be delivered to the M1911.ORG E-zine staff for evaluation. Until that gun review is completed and published, speculation (based on text and photographs at Cabot's web site) is just that. Speculation!

I appreciate the representative from Cabot Guns by Penn United Technologies responding to the members' questions. "We" can be a mighty tough crowd to please.

Everyone try to remember that the reviews in the E-zine tend to be the most objective reviews possible. If a reviewed pistol has "warts", you read about them. If the evaluated gun doesn't live up to the hype, it's spelled out for everyone to see. By the same token, though, if a particular pistol exceeds expectations, you see the reasons why.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should quit responding to this thread. Lively discourse is what makes this forum unique. Just please remember to refrain from "bashing" a product until that product has had an opportunity to be fairly evaluated.

Thank you!

[CabotGuns]

We appreciate all comments and look forward to a robust but respectful dialogue. A couple of quick points in response to some of your comments. It is much cheaper to hand fit a 1911 than develop clone technology. This is why no one has ever done it before, ever. I would not expect anyone to buy a gun because the parts are interchangeable but it does speak as to the precision, consistency and quality of the components. As to cost, Cabot Guns are very expensive to make. We can't apologize for that and realize they are not for everyone. Can we not celebrate that exceptional manufacturing and innovation can still be done here in the USA?

[Jason8844]

We appreciate all comments and look forward to a robust but respectful dialogue. A couple of quick points in response to some of your comments. It is much cheaper to hand fit a 1911 than develop clone technology. This is why no one has ever done it before, ever. I would not expect anyone to buy a gun because the parts are interchangeable but it does speak as to the precision, consistency and quality of the components. As to cost, Cabot Guns are very expensive to make. We can't apologize for that and realize they are not for everyone. Can we not celebrate that exceptional manufacturing and innovation can still be done here in the USA?

I agree 100%. I am proud such a product is made in this country. I wish Cabot all the best!

My bottom line is that I may not be able to afford a Rolex or a Morgan sports car, but that does not mean I can not appreaciate and admire the craftsmanship.

[Art1]

Howdy and Welcome.

[Hawkmoon]

As to cost, Cabot Guns are very expensive to make. We can't apologize for that and realize they are not for everyone. Can we not celebrate that exceptional manufacturing and innovation can still be done here in the USA?
I think this is a valid point.

Let me add something here: On our forum, we encourage "discussion" but we do not tolerate "bashing." This thread represents something that is IMHO totally unprecedented, certainly on this site and perhaps on ALL firearms boards: We have people BASHING a new manufacturer not only before they have personally held one of the guns, but before there have been any reviews of the guns, anywhere.

I would like it to stop. Now. If you don't care to spend $4,000 for a 1911 (and I'm sure many of us can't afford to do so), that's fine. There is no need or reason to pile on and bash a brand new brand because of their price point. There are a lot of high-end shotguns that cost thousands of dollars and that fire the same 12-ga shells a $300 production pump gun fires. Is that any reason to bash the premium guns?

Why is this any different?

In short, gentlemen -- let's cool it with the bashing.

[11 Bravo]

What bashing, Sir? I see a new maker come on the board with a price point that is one of the highest in the industry. Of course the members here have questions about what makes these pistols so much better than others. The questions that have been asked and the observations re: the price, are reasonable. The maker has responded and further questions have been asked. In the end Cabot will either make it or not and if they choose to purchase advertizing and space on this forum, questions will be asked. So far I see no bashing here.

[Jason8844]

How does a company come out of nowhere and price its 1911s at almost $5K? No way I would spend that on a new company's pistol. I'd have to hear a lot of favorable comments from owners before I would make that leap of faith.

I get what you are saying, but this is not a pistol for everyone. This is what is great about our free market economy. For all we know, these pistols are worth $6000 with all the craftsmanship that goes into it. Only time will tell and I wish Cabot only the best.

For the pricepoint, I think a lot of us will have high expectations and that is to be expected. It is up to Cabot to meet them. If they do not, they will not survive. If they do meet and exceed them, you will be upset 10 years from now when they are going for $8000 and you could have had one for half as much and one with a low serial number to boot.

I welcome them to the industry and look forward to one day seeing one of their pistols in person. After all, no one is forcing you to buy one, and I doubt their price will make a RIA, or Colt triple over night.

No matter what the future holds, who is the smarter person? A man who sells a million hamburgers at $1 or the man who sells one hamburger for $1,000,000?

[dV8r]

No matter what the future holds, who is the smarter person? A man who sells a million hamburgers at $1 or the man who sells one hamburger for $1,000,000?
I will gladly sell you 1000 hamburgers at $1000 each on Tuesday. :p

Welcome Cabot, I now have a goal for a retirement gift to myself.

[Alabaster]

To each his own, I suppose. To me, their time in existence has nothing to do with quality. Seems like a quality outfit to me, for sure. I'd be a whole lot more likely to drop 5 on a Cabot than a Wilson right now. As long as they've been around, I can't tell you how many people I've heard lately telling horror stories about 'em. You may feel better off buying a Wilson, though. No prob, go for it. To me, seeing this company's website and manufacturing process makes me feel pretty comfy with the idea- as far as spending 5 grand goes anyways. Truthfully, I'm building 2 guns for myself for 5 grand, and pocketing a good bit of jing to spend on ammo/loading supplies to get some use out of em.

[1911NIZER]

Thank you 11 Bravo, I agree with you 101%! No one is bashing Cabot Guns, we are all simply expressing out opinions. I'm happy to see another fine product made in the USA and we are all entitled to our opinions wheather one likes it or not, we are all Americans and I for one am proud to practice our dear 1st ammendment rights. I see no bashing here. Love this forums!

[C1911]

I'm happy to see another fine product made in the USA and we are all entitled to our opinions wheather one likes it or not, we are all Americans and I for one am proud to practice our dear 1st ammendment rights.
Actually, this is an International Forum and many of the members aren't Americans. Yes, we do have freedom of speech, but let's remember that not only is this an International forum, but it's also a private forum and we do have an obligation to play by the forum/Staff rules. Doesn't appear to me that the Mods are singling anyone out, but at the same time, there's potential for this to turn into a bash post, which is not in the spirit of forum compliance; nor is it the purpose of this thread.

[Hawkmoon]

What bashing, Sir?
Snarky comments that do not contribute to discussion and understanding, but rather simply cast stones, are "bashing." For example:

I understand the technology and craftsmanship and beauty that was put into these pistols but the average guy nowadays will have a tough time to fork out $$$ for these very expensive toys. I'd probably be scared to handle one of these puppies coz I might scratch the finish or put an idiot scratch by accident. These puppies were meant for the mucho dineros. That's just my opinion man!!! There are lots of other high end 1911s for a lot lesser dinero.

But hey for $4000 you get Pachmeyer grips on the Rangemaster.

How does a company come out of nowhere and price its 1911s at almost $5K? No way I would spend that on a new company's pistol. I'd have to hear a lot of favorable comments from owners before I would make that leap of faith.

Why does the uber expensive GI rendition have a flat trigger and fat front strap and dustcover? Besides that, it looks good at 700$.

[1911NIZER]

Hawkmoon Sir,

With all due respect to you, I was simply expressing my thoughts about Cabot Guns and I was not bashing or casting any stones. They are beautiful guns and supposedly made well but people are still entitled to their opinions. I would like to someday see, hold, feel, shoot one of them fine guns but it won't be in the near future. You are probably opinionated in some ways with other products or some things that you like/dislike but it doesn't take away the fact that you are allowed to speak your mind wheather your opinions were positive or negative. And that is exactly what I was doing, I wasn't bashing on any one nor giving a snarky remarks. It's freedom of speech, expressions-----hold on to these freedoms someday it'll all be gone!!

[ncviking]

To enter a saturated market with a "like" product is a gamble for any manufacturer. With a pricepoint that rivals just about 95% of what's out there, is also.
I wish Cabot good luck and look forward to reading about them.

[patriotic]

I would love to see a review of the Cabot 1911 and for that matter a review of a Les Baer 1911 also. We do have to remember JM Browning designed the 1911 as a “war gun” to be reliable in all kinds of adverse conditions along with having the ability to be manufactured by a number of different companies with interchangeable parts. The Browning 1911 has been around for 100 years now with really very little improvements on the basic design.

I assume the Cabot 1911 is manufactured using the latest CNC technology which would mean a highly accurate fit and reproducibility of interchangeable parts. I know some here on this forum favor the hand fitting of a Les Baer 1911. Well, I would like to see maybe a competition between the two in the form of a review.

I would think that given the technology used in the Cabot 1911 and the reproducibility of the parts that the price would decrease as the initial tooling costs are recovered, much the same way Henry Ford’s assembly line reduced manufacturing costs.
It would appear from their Web site the only part of the 1911 Cabot does not manufacture is the barrel and uses a Storm Lake barrel. In any case I am looking forward to the review of this 1911.

[Frank]

.... you are allowed to speak your mind wheather your opinions were positive or negative. And that is exactly what I was doing, I wasn't bashing on any one nor giving a snarky remarks. It's freedom of speech, expressions-----hold on to these freedoms someday it'll all be gone!!It looks like this may a good time for a reminder about how things are on this board.

By all means, express your opinions, whatever they may be. But the Rules (http://forum.m1911.org/show_the_rules.php) -- to which Rules (http://forum.m1911.org/show_the_rules.php) everyone agreed when registering --require that opinions be expressed in a polite and respectful manner, without personal attacks or snark or being snide. Please understand, respect and abide by the Rules (http://forum.m1911.org/show_the_rules.php), and remember that "snark" is in the eye of the beholder.

As to the whole question of freedom of speech, this might be a good time to remember, and perhaps, re-read the explanation set out in the Rules (http://forum.m1911.org/show_the_rules.php). If you open the Rules (http://forum.m1911.org/show_the_rules.php) page and scroll down, you'll see this heading: A note on FREEDOM of SPEECH. Under that heading, please note the following:...The First Amendment is greatly respected here. However, M1911.ORG is private property, not the United States Congress. Quite simply, the First Amendment does not apply to this forum. We respectfully request (and require) that members adhere to all forum policies. This is a contract agreed to by all who become members of this forum. Those who break forum rules cannot invoke U.S. constitutional protections against censorship or for freedom of speech - they do not apply....

[Spyros]

...or to put it another way:

Just because the 1st Amendment gives you the right to sit in a man's living room and use a wide range of unpleasant epithets to describe him, doesn't mean that this man is obliged to let you stay in his living room, once you've said you piece.

[1911NIZER]

Thanks for the reminder Frank. I appreciate it.

[Wile. E. C]

Glad to see a new company putting people to work here in the United States. They are to be congratulated.

I'm sure their Target customer is the person that can buy a Ferrari, or Aston Martin , or Yacht. You will probably see them in the next issue of "The Robb Report"

[BlueSkyJaunte]

One thing I would like to point out--the cost of a (insert top-tier 1911 manufacturer's name here) comes with a track record and known level of customer service and support. Often that is one of the main factors justifying the price of a custom or semi-custom pistol--alongside reliability and accuracy.

What guarantees does Cabot provide along those lines? How do we know that Cabot will still be around to honor those guarantees in 10 years?

I would also like the Cabot representative to clarify the use of the term "nanotechnologists" on the Cabot website. Are Cabot 1911s really manufactured to tolerances of 0.000001 millimeters?

[dV8r]

I would also like the Cabot representative to clarify the use of the term "nanotechnologists" on the Cabot website. Are Cabot 1911s really manufactured to tolerances of 0.000001 millimeters?
A "nanotechnologist" is one who understands nano technology. Their web site clearly states that the gun is manufactured to .001" specifications. :)

[CabotGuns]

We’d like to thank everyone for their enthusiasm and comments regarding Cabot Guns. Many valid points have been raised. To be sure, our decision to enter the 1911 market with a pistol built unlike any before is bold and we expect the consumer to be skeptical. I certainly would not spend $5k on a gun I have not seen before or at least have read several thorough reviews by trusted sources. We’d like forum members to know that while the “Cabot Guns” brand is new and created specifically to brand and market these guns Penn United Technologies, Inc. has been in business since 1971 and operates on the principle of absolute integrity. Our 1911’s are the culmination of 40 years of pioneering precision manufacturing technology. PUT is dedicated to absolute integrity and has operated this way since 1971. It will be difficult to respond to all comments and questions on this forum but from time to time chime in as time or opportunity permits. PUT has thrived during the past four decades by providing precision manufacturing solutions few in the world have achieved. It is true PUT commonly builds components to tolerances of 20,000,0000th of an inch.

The sophisticated components built at PUT have touched all your lives but you do not know it nor will it ever be realized by the public. Our boutique guns are being made as a legacy project. It takes four months to build a Cabot Gun. It is highly methodical and involves 75 individuals throughout the manufacturing process. Yes, we do employ proprietary CNC technology not only limited to CNC machining but also CNC grinding. And yes, we actually design and build our own line of CNC machines under the brand Parker Majestic. We literally build the technology that builds the guns and finesse these tools for our own use and retain proprietary modifications to CNC machining we retain as trade secrets. The construction of the receiver alone involves multi-axis machining using 70 tools prior to final finishing applications.

We are making 1911’s because we love them. We sincerely respect and admire all the great names in the 1911 world. We’re just a different animal and represent a new philosophy in building a 1911. We will push the envelope in coming years in terms of product development and we have many exciting ideas you will be hearing about in 2012. Prior to 2012 you may be seeing two new models; a 400 series stainless steel model as well as a true lefty. We are announcing publicly here on m1911.org that operation “South Paw” has indeed been under development for a several months now.

Our first edition guns are almost sold out. The response we have received from customers who have received their first edition pistols is thrilling and affirming. One collector who received their Mr. Jones last week was so impressed he immediately ordered a second unit. Another customer who has an extensive collection of 1911’s told us it is the finest gun he has ever acquired. We are humbled by such praise. Cabot Guns will be releasing more units in January 2012. We look forward to sharing extensive information with both this board and the gun industry over the next year. Thank you to many of you who have warmly welcomed us to the forum.

[Kells81]

true lefty. We are announcing publicly here on m1911.org that operation “South Paw” has indeed been under development for a several months now.

I am not a SP but the lefty 1911's are pretty cool. I have held and shot a Randall left handed and it was cool.

I have the cash to buy your 1911 if I wanted but the problem goes back to proven track record. I am not rich by any means but my time in the sandbox affords me a bit better budget. I see your point about what it takes and how it takes to build them and how you come up to the price point. I am sure they are very nice but lets face it your new to the game as far as name recognition.

Cannot wait for the review.

[Jason8844]

CabotGuns,
I am excited about hearing all that goes into your pistols. It sounds like you are trying to elevate the art of gunsmithing to the next level.

If I could afford one, all I can say is I would be scared to take one out to shoot. I would be worried I would scratch it or get it dirty. It would end up being another safe queen in my collection!

[CabotGuns]

I am not a SP but the lefty 1911's are pretty cool. I have held and shot a Randall left handed and it was cool.

I have the cash to buy your 1911 if I wanted but the problem goes back to proven track record. I am not rich by any means but my time in the sandbox affords me a bit better budget. I see your point about what it takes and how it takes to build them and how you come up to the price point. I am sure they are very nice but lets face it your new to the game as far as name recognition.

Cannot wait for the review.

Hi Kells81, we totally see your point regarding name recognition and quite frankly expect that. It will take a couple of years to build our reputation and name recognition. A reputation is earned and we are new.

[BigDeeeeeeee]

As a machinist I really appreciate the "Clone Technology" ideology and see a lot of promise with your company. But, as a 1911 junkie I think a $5000 pistol should be able to be ordered with many options and changes. Will your "post custom" concept allow changes to specific models? For instance can I call and order a Jones minus the FCS and with a more traditional RCS? Is there or will there be custom Cabots?

[CabotGuns]

As a machinist I really appreciate the "Clone Technology" ideology and see a lot of promise with your company. But, as a 1911 junkie I think a $5000 pistol should be able to be ordered with many options and changes. Will your "post custom" concept allow changes to specific models? For instance can I call and order a Jones minus the FCS and with a more traditional RCS? Is there or will there be custom Cabots?

Hi BigDeeee, we love our 1911's as they are but we will be offering several customization options. For example. you can add an ambi on the RangeMaster, front slide checkering and stripes. The Trinity stripes on the Jones 1911 contains symbolism that is important to us which we will not alter for that particular model. We can also offer front strap and main spring housing variations. Some changes need to be made at a certain point of the production process. Once guns are complete we do not plan to make significant alterations. Other options such as a beveled mag well with also be offered. We'll adding customization options to our web site during the fourth quarter.

[Red Mike]

I think this is a valid point.

Let me add something here: On our forum, we encourage "discussion" but we do not tolerate "bashing." This thread represents something that is IMHO totally unprecedented, certainly on this site and perhaps on ALL firearms boards: We have people BASHING a new manufacturer not only before they have personally held one of the guns, but before there have been any reviews of the guns, anywhere.

I would like it to stop. Now. If you don't care to spend $4,000 for a 1911 (and I'm sure many of us can't afford to do so), that's fine. There is no need or reason to pile on and bash a brand new brand because of their price point. There are a lot of high-end shotguns that cost thousands of dollars and that fire the same 12-ga shells a $300 production pump gun fires. Is that any reason to bash the premium guns?

Why is this any different?

In short, gentlemen -- let's cool it with the bashing.
ABSOLUTELY!
I'll never be able to afford one, or atleast strongly doubt it, but as another poster has said, I'm sure gald that they exist. Further, it's great to see a U.S. company with a no compromise, it costs what it costs, attitude. It would be nice if our auto manufacturers abided by the same ethos.
Good Luck Cabot Guns.
Semper Fi!

[irishScott]

Like others, the odds of my being able to ever afford one of these and treat it like anything other than a 6000 year old artifact is unlikely, but the perfectionist engineer in me very much appreciates the attention to detail, and even if used heavily I'd be willing to bet they'll last several lifetimes if properly cared for; given that there are original WWI 1911s that are still kicking and these hail from a manufacturing process orders of magnitude more advanced.

Then again I'm also one of those linux geeks who believe that spending multiple days installing an operating system is worth it for the marginal benefits of compiling everything. It's just a nice feeling knowing that everything's been tweaked to perfection.

I see these guns as kind of the F-22 of 1911s. Prohibitively expensive for most purposes, but made with the latest and greatest and superior, if only marginally, to everything else out there. And 100% made in the USA to boot. I'm glad something like this exists to try and raise the bar, here's hoping forthcoming reviews back up the boasting.

[patriotic]

Hi BigDeeee, we love our 1911's as they are but we will be offering several customization options. For example. you can add an ambi on the RangeMaster, front slide checkering and stripes. The Trinity stripes on the Jones 1911 contains symbolism that is important to us which we will not alter for that particular model. We can also offer front strap and main spring housing variations. Some changes need to be made at a certain point of the production process. Once guns are complete we do not plan to make significant alterations. Other options such as a beveled mag well with also be offered. We'll adding customization options to our web site during the fourth quarter.

I guess the question I have is how well does it shoot? Will it compete with 1911s costing 1/2 or 1/4 as much? Does your 1911 shoot better than the Les Baer with their 1.5 inch grouping at 50 yards guarentee?

[John]

Gentlefolks, sorry I haven't jumped in here earlier, but this is a busy time for us.

I just want to remind to all, that the fact Cabot Guns are new in the business, is not necessarily a bad thing. I remind you, that some years ago, when Nighthawk Custom was started, they were new in the business too. Still, they are now quite established in the market. The same thing applies to other industries, but I won't mention such examples here, since our focus is the 1911 pistol.

I would also like to inform the membership that M1911.ORG review of the first Cabot pistol should be expected towards the end of September. And we also plan to visit Cabot Guns factory (or should I say Penn United?) to see with our very own eyes, how these pistols are build.

So, for the time being, take advantage of CabotGuns presence here and ask your questions. You will read all about their guns (and how they shoot) very soon.

Welcome on board Rob!

[Traxxis]

I'll say, I look forward to the review. I think that one important thing the review should include are numbers, and LOTS OF THEM. I must admit, while I understand what you're wanting to do, by making them all congruent, but the fact that there is zero hand work involved in the pistol (as you said) is both a good and a bad thing. Good because you don't have the human interface to mess anything up. Bad because you don't have the human interface to make things better.

The largest concern I have is that you say you make every part yourself (besides the barrel), but you're using a barrel that most in the industry (okay, the industry "know") would consider sub-par for the 1911 platform. I would be eager to know your reasoning behind not using Kart, or better yet, Nowlin (your experience with high quality machining should make you realize the superiority of the EDM process).

As for the people saying it should be cheaper for the machines building them... that's true... once you hit that point of pay off. Developing models for CNC machines, especially with a 1911 (if you don't think it's complicated, take a second to figure out how the trigger track is cut... if you're a machinist, you'll understand the difficulty).

Look forward to seeing one, and more forward to spec'ing one.

[Hawkmoon]

The largest concern I have is that you say you make every part yourself (besides the barrel), but you're using a barrel that most in the industry (okay, the industry "know") would consider sub-par for the 1911 platform. I would be eager to know your reasoning behind not using Kart, or better yet, Nowlin (your experience with high quality machining should make you realize the superiority of the EDM process).
Can you cite any reputable sources to support your claim that "most in the industry" consider Storm lake barrels to be sub-par? I've been hanging around 1911s for a few years now and your post is the first and only time/place I have ever encountered that claim.

[Traxxis]

Can you cite any reputable sources to support your claim that "most in the industry" consider Storm lake barrels to be sub-par? I've been hanging around 1911s for a few years now and your post is the first and only time/place I have ever encountered that claim.

Can you show me 5 reputable smiths that use Storm Lake barrels?

Sometimes it's not what "is" said, but what "isn't" said.

Almost every smith in the industry will not accuse a product of being bad, or sub-par, but if you read between the lines, you get the hint.

http://www.harrisoncustom.com/Package.aspx?pid=50

http://www.rogersprecision.com/id1.html

http://www.rogersprecision.com/id36.html

http://www.rodgerspistolsmithing.com/SpecSheet.html

http://bobmarvelcustomguns.com/deb/barrel-work-match-barrels-compensators.html

http://www.chamberscustom.com/for-sale/black-knight-45acp

http://www.chamberscustom.com/for-sale/limited-edition-shadow-45acp

http://www.chamberscustom.com/images/stories/gallery/IMGP2176.JPG

http://www.chamberscustom.com/images/stories/gallery/IMGP2372.JPG

http://www.combatprecision.com/Gallery.aspx#

http://www.heirloomprecision.com/forsale/pistols.shtml

These are some of the absolute best in the industry, and while many of them don't use Nowlin... they ALL use Kart. I know of absolutely zero smith's that use a Storm Lake. They make decent barrels for plastic guns though from what I hear.

As I said, I'm not saying it's a "bad" thing per se, but I'm intrigued to know what made them make that choice. Valid question I think.

[Traxxis]

BTW, I completely agree with not "bashing" a new company, or ANYBODY. My post is not bashing, simply asking a question as Cabot Guns says they would like to see.

[Hawkmoon]

Can you show me 5 reputable smiths that use Storm Lake barrels?

Sometimes it's not what "is" said, but what "isn't" said.

Almost every smith in the industry will not accuse a product of being bad, or sub-par, but if you read between the lines, you get the hint.

...

These are some of the absolute best in the industry, and while many of them don't use Nowlin... they ALL use Kart. I know of absolutely zero smith's that use a Storm Lake. They make decent barrels for plastic guns though from what I hear.

As I said, I'm not saying it's a "bad" thing per se, but I'm intrigued to know what made them make that choice. Valid question I think.
There's a HUGE difference between "Not my first choice" and "sub-par."

Just about all the sites you link seem to prefer Kart. No problem ... Kart makes excellent barrels. However, by posting multiple links to the same 'smiths, you make it appear much more persuasive than it actually is. You give eleven links, but that represents only six pistolsmiths. Since they all seem to favor Kart, I guess by your standards we can also conclude that Nowlin, Bar-Sto, and Scheumann are all sub-par along with Storm Lake.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. Personally, I consider Scheumann the best, but that doesn't mean I consider the others to be "sub-par."

[Traxxis]

There's a HUGE difference between "Not my first choice" and "sub-par."

Just about all the sites you link seem to prefer Kart. No problem ... Kart makes excellent barrels. However, by posting multiple links to the same 'smiths, you make it appear much more persuasive than it actually is. You give eleven links, but that represents only six pistolsmiths. Since they all seem to favor Kart, I guess by your standards we can also conclude that Nowlin, Bar-Sto, and Scheumann are all sub-par along with Storm Lake.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. Personally, I consider Scheumann the best, but that doesn't mean I consider the others to be "sub-par."

Although I would consider this more "bashing" than most of the other comments in this thread for offering a mere opinion and question, I believe that I sufficiently answered your question. I linked to six smiths who are easilly in the top 15, and dare I say top 10 in the country. One or two of those say he will use Schumann and bar-sto, but not a single one make mention anywhere about even considering the use of a storm lake.

Granted, none mention Nowlin either, however research shows that many Bianchi cups have been won with Nowlin barrels. They have the proven history and track history to back up the 1" at 50 yard claim.

Again, I don't know of any professional smiths that make a habit of using storm lake barrels. Are there any?

[John]

Personally, I consider Scheumann the best, but that doesn't mean I consider the others to be "sub-par."

I agree. Scheumann barrels are by far the best, as far as I am concerned. But that does not make others sub-par.

[Rio Vista Slim]

I'll say, I look forward to the review. I think that one important thing the review should include are numbers, and LOTS OF THEM. I must admit, while I understand what you're wanting to do, by making them all congruent, but the fact that there is zero hand work involved in the pistol (as you said) is both a good and a bad thing. Good because you don't have the human interface to mess anything up. Bad because you don't have the human interface to make things better.
Merely for clarification purposes, I'm quoting a statement directly from the Cabot Guns web site:
It’s simple. Every one of our 1911 pistols exceed national match standards right “out of the box.” Less simple is what that took to achieve: The parts on every frame and slide production run are inspected by a coordinate measuring machine to 0.001 of an inch. All the surfaces on the trigger mechanism are hand polished for ultra consistent trigger pull. The feed ramp is hand polished and rounded to facilitate smooth loading. And every model is test fired with randomly selected bullets of multiple weights and grains. Let’s be precise: Wow.

So, your statement that "zero hand work involved" is actually mistaken.

I would also like to inform the membership that M1911.ORG review of the first Cabot pistol should be expected towards the end of September. And we also plan to visit Cabot Guns factory (or should I say Penn United?) to see with our very own eyes, how these pistols are build.
To address your concern about "numbers, and LOTS OF THEM", I'll refer you to the above response from John.

This "tour" of Penn United Technologies is so important to the pistol review that it may be featured as a separate article in the E-zine. That remains to be determined. However, the membership of the forum can rest assured that the "clone technology" will be thoroughly analyzed and discussed.

[Traxxis]

Hi, Rugerismisticness, thank you for your question and in no way is it offensive. In fact, you are asking a central question which in part spurred the genesis as to why we decided to build a 1911. Other high-end guns such as the fine brands you mention have to be hand lapped to achieve a good fit. Cabot Guns by Penn United Technologies are made without the need to hand fit components. We do this with proprietary technology we have developed over the past forty years which we apply to build sophisticated high tolerance components for the defence, nuclear and aerospace industries. This is the first time we have applied this technology to a consumer firearm. One benefit is that our components are completely interchangeable, something we call clone technology. At our debut a few months ago at the NRA show we had a display called the Cabot Challenge where we set out a table of frames and slides and consumers could randomly pick any frame and slide and assemble them to experience the clone technology of the parts and the precision of the fit. In addition to a new methodology of constructing components we also wanted to make them aesthetically beautiful. More details as to what has gone into developing our 1911’s will be coming soon. We see what we are doing as not necessarily competing with other guns but to simply offer something different and unique that not has been done before. It will take a few years to build the recognition that existing brands have earned. We just truly love and enjoy making these 1911's.

This, and the other post from the next page is what gave me the zero hand fit feelings.

Other than that, I have no concerns about the tour, I really look forward to hearing about it.

[dg12]

Cabot Guns are very expensive to make. We can't apologize for that and realize they are not for everyone. Can we not celebrate that exceptional manufacturing and innovation can still be done here in the USA?

As a cnc lathe and milling guy, I know that it takes a lot of focus, patience, nerves and sweat to machine within .0001 of an inch. You need to babysit the "wear offset" part of the machine to skooch in the tool and keep it running constantly and consistently. That's after you setup the machine which take mucho time.

You can hand fit stuff but it will not get you consistent surface. I've seen pistolsmiths handle files and stones and have seen their flaws. The surfaces will have waves within .010 or so and is acceptable but recognizable for us mochinists.

Will I buy one? If Mr. Cabot hires me I might be able to afford one.

[1911Eagle]

Welcome to the forum, CabotGuns, and thank you for taking the time and interest to participate in our group of 1911 lovers. I find your manufacturing concept fascinating and wish you all the best in your endeavor. It is certainly an out of the box approach to the high end 1911 market. I look forward to the E-zine review of both the gun and your manufacturing facility.

[Paradude]

Welcome.If you can't pay you can't play.I remember paying 3k for my last nighthawk.Quality costs money.We need more gun makers that offer a great product but your customer service needs to be just as good.I have bought many guns that cost a lot then have to go back to the factory on my dime.I hope you will be another example of treating the customer right.The guys at Rock Island are a good example of great customer service.Cannot wait to get one of your pistols to add to my collection.

[despy]

I, for one, can not wait.... These look really cool

[CabotGuns]

Welcome.If you can't pay you can't play.I remember paying 3k for my last nighthawk.Quality costs money.We need more gun makers that offer a great product but your customer service needs to be just as good.I have bought many guns that cost a lot then have to go back to the factory on my dime.I hope you will be another example of treating the customer right.The guys at Rock Island are a good example of great customer service.Cannot wait to get one of your pistols to add to my collection.

Hi Paradude, We desire our customers to experience a luxury customer service experience that is consistent with the effort we place in making our guns. We are firmly committed to treating each Cabot Gun owner like a family member who also happens to be a rock star. We are developing a Cabot Owner's section that will have many perks. A Cabot Owner's weekend is already in the planning for 2012 and much more...

If forum members would be kind enough to post positive customer service experiences I would love to hear what you, our market, would like.

[Jim Watson]

The best customer service is providing a gun that works right the first time and does not have to be sent back at all. I trust Cabot will bear that in mind; the test firing described certainly gives you a chance to make sure of that.

Will you recommend extended "break in" firing before a Cabot is ready to depend on? Or before an unfortunately faulty one (see above) will be accepted for warranty claim?

Precision machining to ensure ready assembly without fitting and interchangeability with guns made ten years later is a fine thing... for the manufacturer. Eli Whitney thought so, too.
Does this extend to your small parts as well as the slide and receiver?
Do you make your own lockwork to the same standard of free interchangeability?
Are your outsourced barrels consistent enough for ready replacement by the user?
I am a lot more likely to need a new barrel or hammer than a new slide; these are not mild steel Army surplus guns and I expect the big parts to last roughly forever.

I am glad to see prospects for a list of options, I expect an expensive gun to meet my tastes as well as to be of quality construction.

[novak1911freak]

There is something foreign and uncomfortable about a high end 1911 that is not hand fit and has interchangeable parts.... Glocks have interchangeable parts and I can buy 10 Glocks for the price of a Cabot 1911.... I would rather spend my money on a 1911 that is crafted by a master gunsmith like Ted Yost, Larry Vickers, Richard Heinie or Chuck Rodgers for that kind of money..... technology replacing an artform.... Machines replacing handcrafted work.... there is something, not right about that..... I can put parts together, but I pay a gunsmith to make them a thing of beauty..... Why should I buy a Cabot 1911 when I can do the same thing, pull parts out of a bin and put them together to form a 1911?

[dV8r]

There is something foreign and uncomfortable about a high end 1911 that is not hand fit and has interchangeable parts.... Glocks have interchangeable parts and I can buy 10 Glocks for the price of a Cabot 1911.... I would rather spend my money on a 1911 that is crafted by a master gunsmith like Ted Yost, Larry Vickers, Richard Heinie or Chuck Rodgers for that kind of money..... technology replacing an artform.... Machines replacing handcrafted work.... there is something, not right about that..... I can put parts together, but I pay a gunsmith to make them a thing of beauty..... Why should I buy a Cabot 1911 when I can do the same thing, pull parts out of a bin and put them together to form a 1911?
No disrespect intended here but this reminds me of: THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT (http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html).
When one looks at the whole picture, not just the end product, there is a whole new picture to be enjoyed.
Working in the industrial world has given me appreciation for the human aspect behind technology. Most people do not realize the craftsmanship, hand work, thought, and good old blood, sweat and tears that goes into designing and building a manufacturing system that can turnout a product of this caliber. (pun intended)
I for one am looking forward to these and how they will help to bring American "know how" that is usually seen only by a few into the everyday world.

[CabotGuns]

The best customer service is providing a gun that works right the first time and does not have to be sent back at all. I trust Cabot will bear that in mind; the test firing described certainly gives you a chance to make sure of that.

Will you recommend extended "break in" firing before a Cabot is ready to depend on? Or before an unfortunately faulty one (see above) will be accepted for warranty claim?

Precision machining to ensure ready assembly without fitting and interchangeability with guns made ten years later is a fine thing... for the manufacturer. Eli Whitney thought so, too.
Does this extend to your small parts as well as the slide and receiver?
Do you make your own lockwork to the same standard of free interchangeability?
Are your outsourced barrels consistent enough for ready replacement by the user?
I am a lot more likely to need a new barrel or hammer than a new slide; these are not mild steel Army surplus guns and I expect the big parts to last roughly forever.

I am glad to see prospects for a list of options, I expect an expensive gun to meet my tastes as well as to be of quality construction.

Thank you for the input. Our policy is that no "break in" period is required for a Cabot to be dependable. When and if there would ever be a problem there is no break-in period for warranty. Should a problem arise it will be given top priority. The warranty extends to all part of the gun not just the frame and slide. And every component is absolutely interchangeable without the aid of a gunsmith. This is what we have accomplished with our clone technology and lies at the essence of building components to precise tolerances. Every time. We guarantee it.

[CabotGuns]

There is something foreign and uncomfortable about a high end 1911 that is not hand fit and has interchangeable parts.... Glocks have interchangeable parts and I can buy 10 Glocks for the price of a Cabot 1911.... I would rather spend my money on a 1911 that is crafted by a master gunsmith like Ted Yost, Larry Vickers, Richard Heinie or Chuck Rodgers for that kind of money..... technology replacing an artform.... Machines replacing handcrafted work.... there is something, not right about that..... I can put parts together, but I pay a gunsmith to make them a thing of beauty..... Why should I buy a Cabot 1911 when I can do the same thing, pull parts out of a bin and put them together to form a 1911?

You raise a central question which is at the heart of what makes us different from any other 1911 that has been introduced to the market. Our guns represent an entirely new ideology. We are not a traditional production or custom gun. We are not master gunsmiths who fit each part but rather master builders who build each part to precise specification consistently so no hand work is required to perfect the fit. This is no easy tack and why no one has ever done this before with a 1911. We don't think you should buy one of our guns instead of a Yost etc. We think you should buy both. it's an apples to oranges comparison. If you can only afford one it's up to you, the consumer, to decide which you want.

I can only quote the great Fabbri who states: "Hand made" or "Machine Made" is not necessarily something good or a quality assurance. Men using his skill and fantasy to drive hands and machines together are the best and only instruments available to seek perfection.

[boblenaere]

You raise a central question which is at the heart of what makes us different from any other 1911 that has been introduced to the market. Our guns represent an entirely new ideology. We are not a traditional production or custom gun. We are not master gunsmiths who fit each part but rather master builders who build each part to precise specification consistently so no hand work is required to perfect the fit. This is no easy tack and why no one has ever done this before with a 1911. We don't think you should buy one of our guns instead of a Yost etc. We think you should buy both. it's an apples to oranges comparison. If you can only afford one it's up to you, the consumer, to decide which you want.

I can only quote the great Fabbri who states: "Hand made" or "Machine Made" is not necessarily something good or a quality assurance. Men using his skill and fantasy to drive hands and machines together are the best and only instruments available to seek perfection.


As a gun owner & enthusiast I look for performance and value not a lot of hype. How long has Cabot been producing firearms?? Watching your promo videos does NOT indicate any great degree of expertise as I watch your tech fumble through the disassembly of a 1911; in fact it raises concern.

[John]

I think there is a pretty good explanation about this. Ray is NOT a gunsmith, he is a Penn Unlimited engineer, and I assume he has been dragged into doing this video, just because there was no one else available to do it.

[CabotGuns]

I think there is a pretty good explanation about this. Ray is NOT a gunsmith, he is a Penn Unlimited engineer, and I assume he has been dragged into doing this video, just because there was no one else available to do it.

It's true. Ray is not a gunsmith but an important and very knowledgeable technician at Penn United. Most importantly he is a gentleman. He did this without advance notice while a film crew were visiting our facility. I don't know how many of you have been filmed by a professional film crew with lighting etc., but it's not easy. This is one take; two cameras. Did you ever watch Julia Child? One could make the case she did no know how to cook from watching her cook. But they'd be wrong.

[11 Bravo]

Gentlemen, what is the status of getting a Cabot 1911 evaluated by a member of this site? All this talk about this new concept of production, no fitting required is fine and dandy, but the proof is in the shooting. Marketing hype aside, can we get an honest report on the function, please? :butthead:

[John]

Already planned for and expected to happen near the end of September. Not only that, but our trusty Steve Clark is planned to visit the factory and see what it's all about.

[garrettwc]

I've purposely avoided this thread since its inception because I didn't think I had anything useful to add to an already negatively toned thread. This post took several tries to write and re-write before I was comfortable with what I was saying.

First let me welcome Cabot Guns and thank them for their efforts to try something different. That's a bold move in a market as tough as the 1911 pistol. I'd also like to commend them on their thick skin :) and the dignified way with which they answered some really tough questions.

We 1911 enthusiasts as a whole, have pretty specific expectations, not to mention traditions that we are hesitant to change. Look at any thread on GI vs full length guide rods, or internal vs external extractors, for example.

But while it's OK to be tough on anything that's "new and improved", we also have to be fair. And that is something I think this thread has been lacking. With the exception of Cabot Guns, their customers, and the members of this forum who are working on the review, none of us has enough first hand knowledge to level the amount of criticism we have to this point.

Not to single anyone out, but a couple of examples that jumped out at me were the comments about Kart vs. Storm Lake barrels, and the comments about the videos on their website.

Back over three decades ago when I first got into the 1911 game no one had ever heard of Kart or Storm Lake. You either used Bar-Sto or you didn't bother. Gunsmiths tend to have favorite brands, and those brands change over time. I don't think anyone here would argue that because a 'smith preferred Wilson Combat parts, that Ed Brown or Cylinder & Slide parts were junk would they?

I also watched the video so that I could give it a fair shake. And frankly, I didn't see any fumbling. The person in the video is identified at the outset as an engineer, not a gunsmith. And it's quite possible that after many years of working with his hands, the gentleman's fingers aren't as nimble as they used to be.

So to my forum mates, I'd just like ask that we please not let the mood of the thread influence our perceptions and we try to be objective, and ask some 1911 specific questions of the folks from Cabot Guns. As to the OP's question of the price, there's no way of knowing. The market will decide that.

Here are my thoughts on the guns, for what they are worth.

What I would ask purely from a business standpoint is this. If the price-point is correct as-is, and it takes roughly four months to produce one pistol, can sales support this as an ongoing financial concern, or will this become a one off project for Penn United? Four months of tied up labor, machinery and raw materials has to be a drain on cash flow.

Do you see a potential for economies of scale, much like the PC-computer industry, where as the technology evolves the end product becomes less expensive?

What about spare parts? If the clone technology and nano accuracy works, that makes these guns incompatible with 90% of the small parts currently being manufactured for 1911s. Will P.U.T. be stocking all the spare parts for sale to the end user? Will the gun require a trip to the factory for parts replacement? Can current parts be fitted to the pistol? And if so, don't you then just have a matched frame and slide with some hand fitted parts the same as commonly available now?

I notice from the pictures that you use internal extractors. These are a critical functioning part on a 1911 and need to be properly adjusted not just for fit dimensions, but also tension. How are you able to maintain consistent spring tension on the extractor?

Does the CNC technology allow you to integrate the plunger tube into the frame, or is it still a separate part?

How are the barrels fit? Do they take advantage of the clone technology as well to allow a true drop in, or do they need to be fitted?

[CabotGuns]

I've purposely avoided this thread since its inception because I didn't think I had anything useful to add to an already negatively toned thread. This post took several tries to write and re-write before I was comfortable with what I was saying.

First let me welcome Cabot Guns and thank them for their efforts to try something different. That's a bold move in a market as tough as the 1911 pistol. I'd also like to commend them on their thick skin :) and the dignified way with which they answered some really tough questions.

We 1911 enthusiasts as a whole, have pretty specific expectations, not to mention traditions that we are hesitant to change. Look at any thread on GI vs full length guide rods, or internal vs external extractors, for example.

But while it's OK to be tough on anything that's "new and improved", we also have to be fair. And that is something I think this thread has been lacking. With the exception of Cabot Guns, their customers, and the members of this forum who are working on the review, none of us has enough first hand knowledge to level the amount of criticism we have to this point.

Not to single anyone out, but a couple of examples that jumped out at me were the comments about Kart vs. Storm Lake barrels, and the comments about the videos on their website.

Back over three decades ago when I first got into the 1911 game no one had ever heard of Kart or Storm Lake. You either used Bar-Sto or you didn't bother. Gunsmiths tend to have favorite brands, and those brands change over time. I don't think anyone here would argue that because a 'smith preferred Wilson Combat parts, that Ed Brown or Cylinder & Slide parts were junk would they?

I also watched the video so that I could give it a fair shake. And frankly, I didn't see any fumbling. The person in the video is identified at the outset as an engineer, not a gunsmith. And it's quite possible that after many years of working with his hands, the gentleman's fingers aren't as nimble as they used to be.

So to my forum mates, I'd just like ask that we please not let the mood of the thread influence our perceptions and we try to be objective, and ask some 1911 specific questions of the folks from Cabot Guns. As to the OP's question of the price, there's no way of knowing. The market will decide that.

Here are my thoughts on the guns, for what they are worth.

What I would ask purely from a business standpoint is this. If the price-point is correct as-is, and it takes roughly four months to produce one pistol, can sales support this as an ongoing financial concern, or will this become a one off project for Penn United? Four months of tied up labor, machinery and raw materials has to be a drain on cash flow.

Do you see a potential for economies of scale, much like the PC-computer industry, where as the technology evolves the end product becomes less expensive?

What about spare parts? If the clone technology and nano accuracy works, that makes these guns incompatible with 90% of the small parts currently being manufactured for 1911s. Will P.U.T. be stocking all the spare parts for sale to the end user? Will the gun require a trip to the factory for parts replacement? Can current parts be fitted to the pistol? And if so, don't you then just have a matched frame and slide with some hand fitted parts the same as commonly available now?

I notice from the pictures that you use internal extractors. These are a critical functioning part on a 1911 and need to be properly adjusted not just for fit dimensions, but also tension. How are you able to maintain consistent spring tension on the extractor?

Does the CNC technology allow you to integrate the plunger tube into the frame, or is it still a separate part?

How are the barrels fit? Do they take advantage of the clone technology as well to allow a true drop in, or do they need to be fitted?

We are humbled by the effort and thoughtful post. We're leaving for an exhibit today and returning late on Monday. We'll do our best to answer your question some time next week.

[Jim Watson]

garrettwc,

I take a lot of that stuff to be asked and answered:

Me:
Do you make your own lockwork to the same standard of free interchangeability?
Are your outsourced barrels consistent enough for ready replacement by the user?

Cabot:

And every component is absolutely interchangeable without the aid of a gunsmith.


Your questions remain as to whether they will keep a stock of those components for IMMEDIATE replacement.

[boblenaere]

"I also watched the video so that I could give it a fair shake. And frankly, I didn't see any fumbling. The person in the video is identified at the outset as an engineer, not a gunsmith. And it's quite possible that after many years of working with his hands, the gentleman's fingers aren't as nimble as they used to be."

Really. Seems to me I remember seeing the tech driving out the mainspring housing pushpin without taking pressure off the mainspring by uncocking (or removing) the hammer first & getting his punch jammed in the frames pushpin hole by the main spring housing in the process. Good way to damage a frame.

[Rio Vista Slim]

Already planned for and expected to happen near the end of September. Not only that, but our trusty Steve Clark is planned to visit the factory and see what it's all about.
Whew! ! ! ! ! ! !

Almost TEN pages of comments, and we don't even have the test pistol yet!

As John said, I'm going to Pennsylvania during the last week in September, to tour Penn United Technologies. The T&E pistol will be ready at that same time.

The membership of the forum will have the opportunity to read my impressions of the factory, view "allowed" photographs of the facility, and get some first-hand knowledge from the folks at Cabot about how they make their pistols.

The evaluation of the test pistol will follow that "plant visit" article immediately. When I return from this trip, both of these projects will be my first priority, and I will endeavor to get both articles published as soon as possible.

----Special Note----
The "allowed" photographs simply means that there are portions of that facility which I will not be able to take pictures in, much less have access to.

[garrettwc]

Really. Seems to me I remember seeing the tech driving out the mainspring housing pushpin without taking pressure off the mainspring by uncocking (or removing) the hammer first & getting his punch jammed in the frames pushpin hole by the main spring housing in the process. Good way to damage a frame.
I went back and watched it again and I see what you are talking about. However, if you look closer you will also notice there are several "cuts" throughout the video, and more than a few steps are skipped. I'm not sure he failed to do everything, but it appears a few steps were lost in editing the video down.

As I said already, I'm not passing judgement one way or the other. I want all the facts, both from Cabot and our reviewer Rio Vista Slim before I make up my mind. Let's give them a fair shake.

[7790314]

When clone technology makes the guns competitively priced then you will have mastered it. Also in response to some previous comments, have seen Storm Lake barrels for sale in EGW's web store. They don't peddle junk.

[Jason8844]

When clone technology makes the guns competitively priced then you will have mastered it. Also in response to some previous comments, have seen Storm Lake barrels for sale in EGW's web store. They don't peddle junk.


Good point. I can buy almost any part for a Glock or SIG and it will fit into any like pistol just fine. Plus in the case of Glock, the price tag is much more reasonable for the same technology (i.e. interchangeability).

[CabotGuns]

Good point. I can buy almost any part for a Glock or SIG and it will fit into any like pistol just fine. Plus in the case of Glock, the price tag is much more reasonable for the same technology (i.e. interchangeability).

This is true of any loose fitted gun. What is important to understand that the Cabot Guin Clone Technology applies to a National Match Grade fitted gun. To date to get such high tolerances fits parts are made over sized and then hand lapped to fit. Cabot parts by Penn United are made to highly precise and consistent tolerances so that no hand work is required. This is what no other 1911 manufacturer has ever accomplished or is capable of producing.

[11 Bravo]

This is true of any loose fitted gun. What is important to understand that the Cabot Guin Clone Technology applies to a National Match Grade fitted gun. To date to get such high tolerances fits parts are made over sized and then hand lapped to fit. Cabot parts by Penn United are made to highly precise and consistent tolerances so that no hand work is required. This is what no other 1911 manufacturer has ever accomplished or is capable of producing.

So, with such a tight fitting pistol, how many rounds can be fired without cleaning before you get a failure? Share your torture test info with us.

[dV8r]

So, with such a tight fitting pistol, how many rounds can be fired without cleaning before you get a failure? Share your torture test info with us.
Why do you think that just because it is precise that it is tight? There is a tolerance that works "best" for all materials and atmospheres, this is what is desired. What it will be is "consistent". No "lemons". :)

[Art1]

The torture test, and overall assesment is what we are waiting on from Rio Vista Slim. When he is done with it, and, gets it written up.

[Jason8844]

This is true of any loose fitted gun. What is important to understand that the Cabot Guin Clone Technology applies to a National Match Grade fitted gun. To date to get such high tolerances fits parts are made over sized and then hand lapped to fit. Cabot parts by Penn United are made to highly precise and consistent tolerances so that no hand work is required. This is what no other 1911 manufacturer has ever accomplished or is capable of producing.

Do not get me wrong. I appreaciate what your company is trying to do. I agree that no 1911 maker has accomplished what you are attempting, however, what is the real advantage to price ratio? For example, you call my Glocks "loose fitting", however if I shot them from a rest, they shoot very tight groups. To my untrained eye and hand, I can detect nothing wrong with the fit of my Glocks, or my Colts for that matter. Plus when I am shooting for fun, or ever had to defend my home from an invader, I not shooting from a rest.

We are talking about pistol shooting here, not long range rifle work. When I want to put a .45 caliber hole in something, it does not matter if I shoot a Colt or a Rock Island Armory, when I miss it is my fault not the pistol's.

I am not talking anything away from your pistols, but I have seen Hickok45, on youtube, shoot a stock, out of the box $400 Philippine made 1911 and plink a gong at 270 yards. Where he is a much better shooter than I am, with the tolerances you're speaking about will not help me at the effective range of what I need to shoot at. I also do not see the practical application of these tolerances either in relation to price.

I am looking forward to the review. The guys around here are honest, fair and well qualified to speak on these matters. It should be interesting.

[Rio Vista Slim]

So, with such a tight fitting pistol, how many rounds can be fired without cleaning before you get a failure? Share your torture test info with us.
The torture test, and overall assesment is what we are waiting on from Rio Vista Slim. When he is done with it, and, gets it written up.
The term "torture-test" can imply a variety of things. 11 Bravo asks a specific question, regarding number of rounds fired, without cleaning, before a failure to fire or other malfunction occurs. But "torture-test" can also mean immersion in mud, sand, dirt, snow, etc., then determining if the pistol functions after these occurences.

Let's be realistic for a moment!

The vast majority of owners of 1911-style pistols rarely shoot more than 200 rounds during any range visit. And, those guns are cleaned after those shooting sessions. There are relatively few shooters out there who would fire over 1,000 rounds, without at least field-stripping their pistols for a good wipe-down.

As to the subject of dirt, mud, etc., I seriously question whether these "tests" are valid in the overall scheme of things. Seriously, who (besides television screen writers) would ever think of firing a 1911 under water? Most especially with a pistol which cost it's owner over $4,000!

But, I digress.

A week from today, I'll be in Pennsylvania visiting Cabot Guns and Penn United Technologies. As I've stated previously, I will give you the most comprehensive review of the manufacturing techniques that I am able to do. I will test the T and E pistol, using our usual protocols. My evaluation will be based on those tests, and all of this will be available when the articles are published in the M1911.ORG E-zine. While I do have a variety of donated ammunition of various types, and my own personal cache of ammo, I can assure the readers that I cannot afford a 5,000 round "torture-test".

Perhaps the folks at Cabot Guns have done these types of tests, but we'll have to see whether they respond to the above quoted posts.

[11 Bravo]

Steve, I regret using the broad and loose term "torture test." I am very interested in seeing if the tolerances of these pistols permit the oft cited ideal of 500 rounds fired without cleaning. Have fun next week! We are looking forward to your report!

[Rio Vista Slim]

Steve, I regret using the broad and loose term "torture test." I am very interested in seeing if the tolerances of these pistols permit the oft cited ideal of 500 rounds fired without cleaning. Have fun next week! We are looking forward to your report!
No need for regrets or apologies..... :)
I knew precisely what you meant, and I addressed the "rounds fired before cleaning" in my post.

Everyone can rest assured that at least 500 rounds will be fired through the test pistol. That is my normal protocol during an evaluation, and I have no intentions of altering that procedure.

And thank you for your good wishes.......I've never been to that part of Pennsylvania, and I'm looking forward to the trip.

[boblenaere]

Steve while many of us await your impressions I think we can all agree that a 500 round test is just that; just a 500 round test. The true test of a pistols quality (so to speak) is time, judging manufacturing issues (and their subsequent resolution) via many owners, etc. As far as gun mfg is concerned this is a fledgling company with little or no history, questionable experience, onerous price tag, and a whole lot of hype. Building a good 1911 is also an art. If a well known gun company with a longstanding reputation for building quality firearms took on this manufacturing process & and came forth with these boastful claims I might be a little more inclined to swallow it. Cabot Guns has got a lot to prove and only time, gun use with many owners, Cabots response to warranty issues, etc etc. and stellar performance from these platforms will justify this price point. Bob

[Spyros]

...As far as gun mfg is concerned this is a fledgling company with little or no history...'Little' is probably fair, but 'no' isn't. A well-known gun manufacturer had a pistol made for them from the folks that now make up Cabot Guns.

[despy]

Sure, they have a lot to prove, let them do it!

I was blessed and grateful that when I started my small professional practice, with little or no experience, and having to charge fees adequate to build my practice, and support my family, I was able to do it. Sure, I had to prove myself, and had to carve a niche for what offer in a competitive environment.
Some charge more than I do, most charge less. My own focus is on doing my best, and staying in business. (hard to do for an architect in this economy)

I see Cabot in the same light. In this wonderful country a business should be allowed start and fail on its own merits of excellence or error.

I am aways an advocate of our free market, and for one feel they should be lauded, and allowed to show us what they can do.

[CabotGuns]

Here are my thoughts on the guns, for what they are worth.

What I would ask purely from a business standpoint is this. If the price-point is correct as-is, and it takes roughly four months to produce one pistol, can sales support this as an ongoing financial concern, or will this become a one off project for Penn United? Four months of tied up labor, machinery and raw materials has to be a drain on cash flow.

Do you see a potential for economies of scale, much like the PC-computer industry, where as the technology evolves the end product becomes less expensive?

What about spare parts? If the clone technology and nano accuracy works, that makes these guns incompatible with 90% of the small parts currently being manufactured for 1911s. Will P.U.T. be stocking all the spare parts for sale to the end user? Will the gun require a trip to the factory for parts replacement? Can current parts be fitted to the pistol? And if so, don't you then just have a matched frame and slide with some hand fitted parts the same as commonly available now?

I notice from the pictures that you use internal extractors. These are a critical functioning part on a 1911 and need to be properly adjusted not just for fit dimensions, but also tension. How are you able to maintain consistent spring tension on the extractor?

Does the CNC technology allow you to integrate the plunger tube into the frame, or is it still a separate part?

How are the barrels fit? Do they take advantage of the clone technology as well to allow a true drop in, or do they need to be fitted?

Just wanted to get back to you with some brief answers:

We developed these guns for ourselves and utilized the methodology Penn United has developed to make some of the most sophisticated metal components in the world. To that end, the gun was built with no compromise for ourselves without regard to where money could be saved. The project was initially a rallying project for staff to take advantage of down time after the financial collapse of late 2008. We were happy to build them for ourselves and tinkered with letting a known brand label the gun. Ultimately, we decided it was to create a brand to market these guns and share them with others who might appreciate the level of machining expertise that we have in the country. We don't plan on making many of these are fully committed to building an important and enduring American brand that will reflect high quality standards.

The cost to produce guns to our specifications is quite costly and is reflected in the price of the guns. For example, there is 37 hours of machining involved in the frame and slide, CNC grinding and EDM work. Further the quality control processes are exceptional by employing Coordinate Measuring Machines. A Master Hand Polisher, a very rare skill, spends hours on each gun perfecting the luster prior to bluing. There may be economies of scale if we were to make thousands of units but only anticipate making a few hundred a year so we don't expect a cost decrease. Our margins are quite slim and an increase in price may be necessary.

All the small parts are stocked and are fully interchangeable without gunsmithing. Yes, all the small parts are also standardized to high tolerances. Just drop-in and go.

The use of Internal Extractors are consistent with the 1911 design by J. M. Browning. They are set/adjusted with a special tool designed to induce an ark into the extractor. They are tested after installation in the slide with a pull test gage to validate the correct pressure is being generated.

We make the plunger tube as a separate part.

The barrel is ground on critical fit dimensions. They are true drop-in. No need to further fit as the lock-up in the slide is EDM for perfect consistency.

I hope this helps. I appreciate your patience. Much, much information will be forthcoming in a few months.

Thanks for your interest. We realize this is an entire new ideology in gun construction and we expect it will take a few years for acceptance.

[boblenaere]

"All the small parts are stocked and are fully interchangeable without gunsmithing. Yes, all the small parts are also standardized to high tolerances. Just drop-in and go."

So what we are looking at then are precision machined "production" pistols??

[Red Mike]

Holy Cow! This thread is crazy! We haven't even seen a review yet and guys are slamming this company. If ya can't afford one, or don't want one, fine, but get off their case already, Sheesh! No good deed goes unpunished, I guess. There is a reason that the Wolrd has Bugatti's and VW Bugs. To each their own! Value is determined by the beholder.

[Hawkmoon]

"All the small parts are stocked and are fully interchangeable without gunsmithing. Yes, all the small parts are also standardized to high tolerances. Just drop-in and go."

So what we are looking at then are precision machined "production" pistols??
I believe that's what they've been telling us clone technology is, right from the very first post.

[boblenaere]

Glock's manufacturing process could also be considered a "clone technology". Less precise tolerances but same "drop in fit parts" idea. I just can't see the price justification. And the Bugatti's and VW Bugs comparison does not provide a good analogy. Custom cars have their own unique design & personality. This is a precision machined copy of someone elses design. Unique??? The affordability of their product is not an issue for me; I just don't see how it is worth it. The GI model at over 4 grand comes with plastic grips. Another more expensive model is dressed with Pachamyr grips. Other custom and less expensive pistols are adorned with custom engraving. What is the attraction here? There are so many choices available to consumers in an already overcrowded 1911 arena. You would need an incredible edge, uniqueness, and/or beautifully elegant design to compete here at their price range. It does not appear that Cabot thought this out too well.

[CabotGuns]

Glock's manufacturing process could also be considered a "clone technology". Less precise tolerances but same "drop in fit parts" idea. I just can't see the price justification. And the Bugatti's and VW Bugs comparison does not provide a good analogy. Custom cars have their own unique design & personality. This is a precision machined copy of someone elses design. Unique??? The affordability of their product is not an issue for me; I just don't see how it is worth it. The GI model at over 4 grand comes with plastic grips. Another more expensive model is dressed with Pachamyr grips. Other custom and less expensive pistols are adorned with custom engraving. What is the attraction here? It does not appear that Cabot thought this out too well.

Hi Bobblenaere,

We don't expect everyone to get what we're doing. It takes a fairly sophisticated understanding of machining, grinding and EDM technology to understand what these guns represent from a technical perspective. We'll try our best in the coming months to shed light on what makes our guns unique. We would appreciate not being prejudged although I can understand the skepticism.

Saying Clone Technology could apply to other gun manufacturers is like saying Danny Devito and Arnold Schwartzenegger are identical twins. Yes, they're both human, two legs, two arms, one nose etc. but they are not clones. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

The construction of the our guns reflect the way everything is done at Penn United. It was not only well thought out but specifically intended to introduce an entirely new ideology to building a gun and to celebrate the skills and technology we have developed here in Pennsylvania. It's true our guns do not fit in any box. They are not traditional production guns and they are not custom fit by hand. We call them post-custom, our term. As precision experts we know that the human hand is imperfect. To build an accurate gun the custom gun sector has to buy or make traditional production parts and then hand alter them to achieve precise tolerances and a good fit. Why not build them that way to begin with?

Today in society where the values we put forward are those of the quick and the easy that which is difficult and slow does not have prestige and of course building guns they way we do is difficult and slow. And expensive. The industry builds parts that vary wildly, fit loosely and are poorly made. That's not good enough for us. We are building National Match Grade 1911's that prior to Cabot has only been achieved with hand lapping. In manufacturing we still have a small miracle in this large country a manufacturer exists that can do this because I don't know of another company in any country that has built a pistol like ours.

We built these guns for ourselves, we built them because we love the 1911, and we built them because no one else can like we do. In the tension of what exists and what is possible we live. We would not have it any other way. We understand this is not for everybody and we're o.k. with that.

fyi, the grips on the GI are the original M1911 A1 grips. We built it to original ordinance specifications and to honor the initial m1911 A1 pistol. And by the way, it's the only reproduction fully made in America.

[Art1]

So, don't get one, bobenaire.

[Rio Vista Slim]

So, don't get one, bobenaire.
PRECISELY!
Steve while many of us await your impressions I think we can all agree that a 500 round test is just that; just a 500 round test.
I've stated what the protocol is for our evaluations. It is rare for any gun company to allow a gun reviewer to keep a pistol long enough for an extensive test. In fact, Steve Shield's recent review of the Wilson Combat X-Tac, and the subsequent test of that pistol's finish, is the only extended review that comes to mind.
The true test of a pistols quality (so to speak) is time, judging manufacturing issues (and their subsequent resolution) via many owners, etc.
I agree, basically, with this statement. But I also think you'd agree that many of our most established gun makers have gone through periods of less-than-stellar production or quality control. The resolution to problems (as you stated), is key to a company's survival in the marketplace.
As far as gun mfg is concerned this is a fledgling company with little or no history, questionable experience, onerous price tag, and a whole lot of hype.
In the final analysis, this last statement speaks volumes about your attitudes regarding the Cabot Guns. It has repeatedly been pointed out by the Cabot Gun representative that they have no intentions of "blowing" Colt, Kimber, Les Baer, Wilson, or anyone else out of the "1911 water". They are doing things their own way, and don't expect to sell thousands of pistols to eager buyers wanting clone technology. They are building a 1911 the way THEY want to build it, and are only asking for a fair and impartial evaluation of the product. That is what I intend to do.

If, after reading both articles, you still want to debate the issue, then you'll have that opportunity. In the meantime, remember that your opinions about "questionable experience", onerous price tag, and a whole lot of hype" are only your opinions. And, you've repeatedly made your opinions in this thread quite clear. We all understand where you're coming from.

[boblenaere]

Fair enough. Awaiting your impressions.

[Hawkmoon]

Steve while many of us await your impressions I think we can all agree that a 500 round test is just that; just a 500 round test.
The original acceptance test for the M1911 was 6000 rounds. At a current price of approximately 35 cents per round, are you seriously asking or expecting Rio Vista Slim to pump over $2,000 worth of ammunition through a pistol just for a test? Are you willing to supply the ammunition?

Consider how many posts and threads we have for some of the major, "name" manufacturers in which the owners complain of serious problems within the first 50 rounds, and those "name" manufacturers tell the unhappy owners not to pick up the telephone until they have put at least 500 rounds through the pistol for "break in." If 500 rounds is what these "name" manufacturers seem to agree is a reasonable "break-in" period (and I put that in quotation marks because I have never bought into that concept), then a test of 500 rounds should be sufficient for the pistol to be deemed "broken in" and for problems to have manifested.

[garrettwc]

@Cabot Guns, thanks for your replies. I understand a bit better now. It's a very interesting concept. I look forward to hearing more about it.

[John]

And please keep in mind that we are open to ammo donations for our E-zine tests. So far, very few companies are donating ammo, Armscor being the main supplier.

So if some folks want us to try the Cabot pistol with lots of ammo, here is your chance to contribute.

[Jim Watson]

Good points.
I hope some of the shooting is from a Ransom Rest at 50 yards which will test for "National Match" accuracy.
I read lots of gun tests with accuracy "tested" with a sandbag, or best three out of five shots, or some such improvisation. That does not explore claims of "National Match" standards. Of course you will use good quality ammunition, the maker's recommended brand and others on the market.

It is fun to read about the technology, and I am sure there are some people who will buy a Cabot because of the manufacturing methods, but it comes down to performance for most of us. Accuracy and reliability are the only things reasonably testable.
Durability, well, Skeeter Skelton once shot a Gold Cup and a Commander 5000 rounds each, but that might be out of the reach of a short term test by anybody but a government agent or agency these days.

[Jason8844]

I have been spending more time thinking about this as of late. The 1911 platform utilizes 100 year old designs. Why did Cabot not use this technology and design a pistol from the ground up? Semi-auto pistols have come a long way since JMB. They could have come up with a pistol that reflected their manufacturing and design philosophy more. It just seems to me they are trying to bring something to the 1911 that was never intended. Still, more power to them for trying.

What has Penn United done besides ruffle the feathers of 1911 owners worldwide anyways? :D

I also find it odd that some of us will pay top dollar to have a well known gunsmith handfit a 1911 and others will pay more to have a machine make sure no human hand was involved. Granted, to each his own and I respect anyone who enjoys these pistols.

My personal feeling is the 1911 can be a work of art and a Glock or SIG can not. All are great guns, but for different reasons. But my feeling on art is that it must be made by human hands. The humanistic imperfections give it character and its desired traits. I would not hang an original Claude Monet or Jackson Pollock on my wall if I knew a computer painted it to within nano-inches of another one and due to clone technology the guy down the street had one just like it.

[boblenaere]

I have been spending more time thinking about this as of late. The 1911 platform utilizes 100 year old designs. Why did Cabot not use this technology and design a pistol from the ground up? Semi-auto pistols have come a long way since JMB. They could have come up with a pistol that reflected their manufacturing and design philosophy more. It just seems to me they are trying to bring something to the 1911 that was never intended. Still, more power to them for trying.

What has Penn United done besides ruffle the feathers of 1911 owners worldwide anyways? :D

I also find it odd that some of us will pay top dollar to have a well known gunsmith handfit a 1911 and others will pay more to have a machine make sure no human hand was involved. Granted, to each his own and I respect anyone who enjoys these pistols.

My personal feeling is the 1911 can be a work of art and a Glock or SIG can not. All are great guns, but for different reasons. But my feeling on art is that it must be made by human hands. The humanistic imperfections give it character and its desired traits. I would not hang an original Claude Monet or Jackson Pollock on my wall if I knew a computer painted it to within nano-inches of another one and due to clone technology the guy down the street had one just like it.

Well Stated.

Quote: The original acceptance test for the M1911 was 6000 rounds. At a current price of approximately 35 cents per round, are you seriously asking or expecting Rio Vista Slim to pump over $2,000 worth of ammunition through a pistol just for a test? Are you willing to supply the ammunition? End quote.

Never suggested they put that much ammo through the pistol (s). Someone else made a "torture test remark". My remark simply states that 500 rounds can in no way support Cabots claims. 500 rounds will give a good idea of the pistols function, precision & accuracy. And we do see guns have issues even with prelkiminary tests.
Apparently my "fair enough" was not good enough. My point was and I will restate it that this company is producing a very expensive weapon. They've broken into the market with claims which can not at this time be substantiated. They have put forth videos of techs demonstrating detail stripping a pistol where 1. he drops the slide on an empty chamber 2. tries to show the removal of a mainspring housing by driving the housing pin out without taking pressure off the mainspring (by first lowering the hammer) & subsequently gets his punch trapped in the housing pin hole on the frame by the housing which is under pressure from the hammer. It is clear as day in the video and has nothing to do with editing or the other excuses I've seen, etc. When you want to be taken seriously you need to carefully scrutinize how you present yourself. You can't take the time & effort to pay attention to these details why would I trust you to pay attention to details during manufacturing?? You want to claim to be the 1911 that all others will be compared to & then release the above. My opinion and yes it is my opinion is that there is nothing here that makes them stand out enough from the herd to justify such a lofty price point; and they've already commented about having to possibly raise prices. Really???

[CabotGuns]

I have been spending more time thinking about this as of late. The 1911 platform utilizes 100 year old designs. Why did Cabot not use this technology and design a pistol from the ground up? Semi-auto pistols have come a long way since JMB. They could have come up with a pistol that reflected their manufacturing and design philosophy more. It just seems to me they are trying to bring something to the 1911 that was never intended. Still, more power to them for trying.

What has Penn United done besides ruffle the feathers of 1911 owners worldwide anyways? :D

I also find it odd that some of us will pay top dollar to have a well known gunsmith handfit a 1911 and others will pay more to have a machine make sure no human hand was involved. Granted, to each his own and I respect anyone who enjoys these pistols.

My personal feeling is the 1911 can be a work of art and a Glock or SIG can not. All are great guns, but for different reasons. But my feeling on art is that it must be made by human hands. The humanistic imperfections give it character and its desired traits. I would not hang an original Claude Monet or Jackson Pollock on my wall if I knew a computer painted it to within nano-inches of another one and due to clone technology the guy down the street had one just like it.

Jason. Good points. Penn United is a world leading innovator in precision manufacturing. Some say the best in the world. Company divisions include military/defense, nuclear, aerospace, oil and gas, medical components etc. In addition to 7 highly specialized company divisions Penn United builds and develops it's own proprietary technology, CNC machines, metallurgy. A carbine tungsten division is also exceptional.

We love the art by hand which great pistolsmiths create. We're big fans of several and do not consider what we do as a replacement. However, we do create art with technology. If Jackson Pollock used an airbrush rather than a paint brush would it still not be great? In my view art causes one to think about the usual differently or in new ways. Do we not do that?

[CabotGuns]

Never suggested they put that much ammo through the pistol (s). Someone else made a "torture test remark". My remark simply states that 500 rounds can in no way support Cabots claims. 500 rounds will give a good idea of the pistols function, precision & accuracy. And we do see guns have issues even with prelkiminary tests.
Apparently my "fair enough" was not good enough. My point was and I will restate it that this company is producing a very expensive weapon. They've broken into the market with claims which can not at this time be substantiated. They have put forth videos of techs demonstrating detail stripping a pistol where 1. he drops the slide on an empty chamber 2. tries to show the removal of a mainspring housing by driving the housing pin out without taking pressure off the mainspring (by first lowering the hammer) & subsequently gets his punch trapped in the housing pin hole on the frame by the housing which is under pressure from the hammer. It is clear as day in the video and has nothing to do with editing or the other excuses I've seen, etc. When you want to be taken seriously you need to carefully scrutinize how you present yourself. You can't take the time & effort to pay attention to these details why would I trust you to pay attention to details during manufacturing?? You want to claim to be the 1911 that all others will be compared to & then release the above. My opinion and yes it is my opinion is that there is nothing here that makes them stand out enough from the herd to justify such a lofty price point; and they've already commented about having to possibly raise prices. Really???

Dude, why the hate for American innovation? Can we please have an adult conversation? You are entitled to your opinion but I don't think it's as qualified as those who invited us to attend arguably the most exclusive gun showcase in the world this weekend. In attendance were some of the top gun collectors in the world. And the most exclusive gun brands on earth. We are the only 1911 manufacturer to ever have been invited and it was an honor. We extremely well received. We are also sold out of our first year production. Orders have already been taken for 2012. And yes, prices will be increasing effective January 1, 2012.

Exhibitors at the showcase included: Anderson & Wheeler, Arrieta, AyA, B. Rizzini, Belvoir Castle-Her Grace The Duchess of Rutland, Beretta, Blaser, Blixt & Co, Bertuzzi, Boss & Company, Braeval, Christopher Smith,Griffin & Howe, Hemingway's Guns-Silvio Calabi, Holland & Holland, James Purdey & Sons, Jules Bury, Kent Cartridge, Krieghoff International, Lebeau-Courally, Logsdail Classics,Leica Optics, Luciano Bosis, Mareuil, Perazzi, Remington Custom, Swarovski, Zeiss and Cabot Gun Company.

[Frank]

Folks, this has been getting out of hand, and that must stop. One post has been deleted and another edited.

You may express an opinion, even if negative. But the rules of this site require that you do so in a polite and gentlemanly fashion.

[ncviking]

First and foremost.
I agree with Frank.
Second
Let us "mortals" be "mortals" and those that can afford them, buy them.
Nuff said!

[Landman]

I agree with Frank. Some of these post have been rude and totally uncalled for. I would also like to commend Cabot Guns on the manner in which they responded to those posts. It would have been easy (and certainly understandable) to have responded in a different manner. It is obvious that Cabot Guns is a class act and I wish them all the best.

[patriotic]

I think that if you look at the handcrafted Rolex wristwatch compared to the less expensive machine made Seiko wristwatch you find very little difference in function. Replace the analog watches with a digital Casio and we find better accuracy with the new technology. Some will buy for name recognition while others will buy for function. Personally, I prefer a 1911 that functions well, is built with technological accuracy over a custom 1911 that someone had to drag a rough file over to make the parts fit.

I commend Penn United for the foresight to utilize their resources in slow production times to produce a product with the excellence I am sure will be born out with Rio Vista Slim’s testing. My expectations of the Cabot 1911 are high, maybe as high as the price they are asking. I would expect the Cabot 1911 to perform as well if not better than other 1911s in that price range. I realize Penn United is not a gun manufacturing company like Colt or Springfield Armory etc and produces a verity of products. I understand the pricing of their 1911 is based on employee and equipment costs but then again if they were not building 1911s during their slow times they would be paying their employees to do nothing.

I have a 1911 production gun, made with CNC technology that is well fitted and very accurate. It is made by a company that mass produces firearms. I am sure it is not made to the standard of accuracy as the Cabot but then again it is about 1/8 the cost. I like the idea of clone technology which should save Penn United a bundle in labor cost while producing a very accurately produced product.

I am looking forward to the review.

[Kenny Lee]

The question thats been nagging me is, why out source the barrel?
Wouldn't the barrel benefit from precision manufacturing technology?

I wish the Cabot brand the best, I can see a market segment that would welcome a precision 1911 that can be maintained by simply replacing a worn or broken part without the down time of hand fitting by a gunsmith.

Thats my 2 cent

ps: This is just my thought, but I think people are critical of the price point of the GI model, GI 's are considered entry level no thrills weapons that do not command a high price.

[Jason8844]

I guess I also am looking at this from a business perspective and what I have seen in a very similar industry. For example, I am a professional musician by trade. To be specific, I am a professional trombonist. I am a performer and pedagogue and teach at a University and hold a Doctor of Music degree from a prestigious music institution.

In my profession I have seen the exact same thing we are seeing here with Cabot occur in my field of music. Back in the 1990s, one of my students could pick up a high quality, hand crafted instrument from a reputable manufacturer for around $2000. The prices of quality instruments, from brass, percussion and guitars have always remained about the same throughout the last century (adjusting for inflation of course).

Around 2002, a couple of boutique manufacturers came on the scene. The companies claimed to introduce "new" manufacturing techniques to make the tolerances of the machined parts, complex valves and mechanisms more accurate. Although, they still farmed out other parts of the instrument to other manufactures, these new instruments with high tolerances came on the market at about a $6000 price point. The instruments, still sounded the same, and while an instrument builder maybe able to notice the slight manufacturing difference, the final musical product was the same and many agreed did not justify the triple market rate price point. Sound familar, right?

It seems there is no shortage of people willing to part with large sums of their hard earned money for items that may not justify the extra expenditure needed to acquire them. Cabot could put a $10,000 or $15,000 price on their pistols and still find people to buy them.

Now back to my story related to my business. In the music world, there were and still are plenty of people that bought the overpriced instruments because of the claims of "nano-this" and "high tolerance-that". Did I care? Heck no!! After all, I play on instruments that date back to the 40s, 50s and 60s. However, things soon changed. These companies with price points in the stratosphere made enough headway into the marketplace that was dominated by century old companies. These companies seeing the number of people willing to empty savings accounts to buy these horns raised their own prices on their products. Now just 10 year later, the same $2000 instrument is now $5500 and has no techmological advances. These increases are well above annual inflation rates of our economy and now make the acquisition of a new quality instrument out of the reach of many younger students who cannot afford them. Not to mention have tanked the stocks prices of instrument companies like Steinway Musical Instruments (NYSE:LVB).

I coined the term "The Greenhoe Effect" to reflect the outrageous price increases forced on our small, unregulated niche market in the music world by these companies. I named it after the Greenhoe Trombone Company that started it all. I just do not want to see "The Cabot Effect" in our niche market.

I also would like to know the business model of Cabot Guns and Penn United. They claim their 1911's are just a side project of thier employees. So are they wanting to make a profit on these? Expand the business? Break even? Just do this for fun?

The proceeding is my opinion and does not reflect the opinions of anyone else of the 1911 forum

Cabot Guns have a one major flaw that most 1911 have and always will have. This flaw will forever, prevent me from purchasing one of their firearms. It has nothing to do with price. These flaws are shared by other companies like Kimber, NightHawk Custom, Wilson Combat, RIA etc. Is has to do with two factors...

1. The frame is not stamped "Colt's Pt. F.A. Mfg."
2. The slide is not stamped with a little horsey on it.

However if price was a consideration, for 5G's I would expect the Cabot Gun Company to guarantee I would never miss a shot, I would win a USPSA Championship, the gun would clean itself, bring me a cold beer and make me dinner afterwards.

On a serious note, I am also not sure why with all the technology they can no integrate the plunger tube into the slide and make their own barrels.

[Frank]

...I am also not sure why with all the technology they can no integrate the plunger tube into the slide... Well, for one thing it's not clear that integrating the plunger tube is necessarily the best idea. There are pros and cons.

True, an integrated plunger tube is absolutely secure. But if the plunger tube is damaged, repairing an integrated one can be a chore, or impossible. But replacing a separate plunger tube is fairly simple.

DVC

[Jason8844]

Well, for one thing it's not clear that integrating the plunger tube is necessarily the best idea. There are pros and cons.

True, an integrated plunger tube is absolutely secure. But if the plunger tube is damaged, repairing an integrated one can be a chore, or impossible. But replacing a separate plunger tube is fairly simple.

DVC

Good point. I thought about that after I posted. However, can a frame be damaged if a plunger tube is installed incorrectly? Is there a limit to the number of times one can replace a plunger tube?

I just think an integrated plunger tube is one of of things that would help me validate a high price point. It would be an option you could get no where else.

[Art1]

But, Para and Ruger both have this feature.

[Jason8844]

But, Para and Ruger both have this feature.

I am a Colt man. You expect me to know these things? Lol

Next time I am at my LGS I will check out the Ruger. Thanks for educating me!

[Spyros]

Para (not their Expert models), Ruger, some Nighthawks and a few others that use Caspian frames, have an integral plunger tube. What all these frames have in common, is that they're investment castings. We don't see forged frames with this feature, because the initial forging would need to be that much wider, and that probably doesn't make economic sense. But this is only an assumption on my part.

[Jim Watson]

A damaged integral plunger tube requires only that the gun be fixed by a real gunsmith in a well equipped shop. Mill off the remains of the integral tube, drill two properly located holes, and install a conventional tube. Not a job for Bubba, but not a deal breaker. I have seen many loose plunger tubes - many of those due to improper preparation by the frame manufacturer - but only a couple damaged too badly to pass the plungers.
There are customizers who will solder down the plunger tube, just in case.plu

If the plunger tube on a gun in the Cabot price range came loose, I would expect "customer service" of a speed and quality never seen before.

[CabotGuns]

Dear forum member and observers. We will be receiving a visit from M1911.org this week and thus this will be our last post for some time until you have a review and data to digest. The response we have received through the forum has far exceeded our expectations. I would like to thank you for the intense, widely arranging and enriching conversation the forum has provided as nourishment. And we know the nature of this conversation will not end with this interlocutor as this is not the beginning of the end but merely the end of the beginning. We’ll keep talking with the forum and hope you will talk back. Only the hard endures and we entrust our dedication to creating a legacy of steel, American technology and craftsmanship will succeed. Thank you for the feast of feedback and input. We are very happy and proud of the 1911's we have developed but cannot imagine what we will be building three years from now as we continue to innovate and perfect.

[EDBROWNNIGHTHAWK]

Assuming the review is fabulous, count me in!! Are the guns built "by hand"? No. But, the machines that build these guns are also built by the people that build these guns! Thats cool to me, and a good story. Of course, I am no Les Baer and have no faith in my own gunsmithing. So, maybe that is why I am all for the most precise "machining" in the world to build my 1911. As opposed to human hands. That is celebrating the precision that our society is now capable of.

PS, I too noticed the technician in the video dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I cringed. I let some guy at the range shoot my Nighthawk and when he was done emptying the mag he hit the slide stop. Never again did I share my $3,000 gun with a stranger!!

[Jason8844]

Assuming the review is fabulous, count me in!! Are the guns built "by hand"? No. But, the machines that build these guns are also built by the people that build these guns! Thats cool to me, and a good story. Of course, I am no Les Baer and have no faith in my own gunsmithing. So, maybe that is why I am all for the most precise "machining" in the world to build my 1911. As opposed to human hands. That is celebrating the precision that our society is now capable of.


I have a question for all those who have metal-working knowledge because a Cabot Gun has interchangeable parts due to precise machining. When you change out a part due to wear, will it really fit as well as new? Because when two parts rub together and cause friction, don't both parts wear and not just one? Would this mean, that when you drop in a new part, say a slide, the frame has already experienced wear from the previous slide and normal use, the fit would still be off and not as precise as original specs?

Does my question make any sense? I am not sure if I am wording it correct.

[boblenaere]

I have a question for all those who have metal-working knowledge because a Cabot Gun has interchangeable parts due to precise machining. When you change out a part due to wear, will it really fit as well as new? Because when two parts rub together and cause friction, don't both parts wear and not just one? Would this mean, that when you drop in a new part, say a slide, the frame has already experienced wear from the previous slide and normal use the fit, would still be off and not as precise as original specs?

Does my question make any sense? I am not sure if I am wording it correct.

Actually it is one of the 1st serious question I have seen posed that makes sense. There will be wear of the parts regardless of fitment as they move against each other. Precision fitting may slow that process but it will occur nonetheless. Nothing made by man lasts forever. How that affects drop in parts is another issue depending on the amount of wear present on the "mating part(s)". To re-achieve that like new precision fit for that replacement part it would most likely have to be oversized and then hard fit utilizing a hand fit process or in Cabots case "machined down to fit precisely". This would likely involve a trip back to Cabot. The part may be able to be "drop in" but your not going to have that "precision fit" they are building their name on. Precisely why I can't see the justification for the cost factor. All metal parts have a finite life span. To be fair I'm sure you are looking at many many rounds before anyone will notice any appreciable difference.

One of the reasons I can't see this idea taking off unless they can decrease their manufacturing costs. You can purchase a great shooting, long lasting hand fit 1911 for a whole lot less. The whole concept may be flawed by design. Bob

[dV8r]

Actually it is one of the 1st serious question I have seen posed that makes sense. There will be wear of the parts regardless of fitment as they move against each other. Precision fitting may slow that process but it will occur nonetheless. Nothing made by man lasts forever. How that affects drop in parts is another issue depending on the amount of wear present on the "mating part(s)". To re-achieve that like new precision fit for that replacement part it would most likely have to be oversized and then hard fit utilizing a hand fit process or in Cabots case "machined down to fit precisely". This would likely involve a trip back to Cabot. The part may be able to be "drop in" but your not going to have that "precision fit" they are building their name on. Precisely why I can't see the justification for the cost factor. All metal parts have a finite life span. To be fair I'm sure you are looking at many many rounds before anyone will notice any appreciable difference.

One of the reasons I can't see this idea taking off unless they can decrease their manufacturing costs. You can purchase a great shooting, long lasting hand fit 1911 for a whole lot less. The whole concept may be flawed by design. BobI do not consider this the only serious question here, however.
If moving parts are correctly manufactured, the maker will design which part will wear the most, thus will have a great deal of control as to which parts will need to be replaced and how often. This is done by controlling surface hardness of the parts. This can be affected by owners who remove most or all of the hardened surface, obviously if no "tweaking" needs to be done there is less loss of control. I would expect that any part of a "properly" designed and built machine will have "drop in" parts available that fit as well as the originals.

[boblenaere]

I do not consider this the only serious question here, however.
If moving parts are correctly manufactured, the maker will design which part will ware the most, thus will have a great deal of control as to which parts will need to be replaced and how often. This is done by controlling surface hardness of the parts. This can be affected by owners who remove most or all of the hardened surface, obviously if no "tweaking" needs to be done there is less loss of control. I would expect that any part of a "properly" designed and built machine will have "drop in" parts available that fit as well as the originals.

If an original part fails & the replacement "drop in part" part is made to original specs (and it would have to be as the mfg does not have a crystal ball to determine the amount of wear imposed on the mating parts) then it can not fit to the same specifications as it did in the original new pistol with regard to the part it was in contact with; it is a physical impossibility. For example if the mating part had worn down 1/1000 of an inch (just an arbitrary example) then the original fit would be off by that same amount. Bob

[dV8r]

If an original part fails & the replacement "drop in part" part is made to original specs (and it would have to be as the mfg does not have a crystal ball to determine the amount of wear imposed on the mating parts) then it can not fit to the same specifications as it did in the original new pistol with regard to the part it was in contact with; it is a physical impossibility. For example if the mating part had worn down 1/1000 of an inch (just an arbitrary example) then the original fit would be off by that same amount. Bob

"does not have a crystal ball to determine the amount of wear "
They have better than a this, they designed and built it. They know the "Range of all Tolerances". Albeit, there is some faith in the owner involved for proper maintenance. :)

"can not fit to the same specifications as it did in the original new pistol"
Not true. Specifications are not for 1 exact size but rather for a range. That range is key to making things work well and last a long time.
There NOTHING in this world that is "Perfect" all the time.
It is the "Range of Tolerance" that makes for "Excellence" This is true of man made objects and of man himself.

[boblenaere]

Range of Tolerance where a machine will function and operate is one thing. Precision tight tolerance being the mantra this company is touting is a different beast & one that will wear away. Proper maintenance will slow down wear but parts still do wear and the "Precise Fit" will be different. In a previous life I owned a chain manufacturing company and made the tools for those machines. I had to make the tools & various parts as they wore down. They had to be hand fit with a high degree of precision. Tolerances changed over time as did the dimensions of the parts we replaced to achieve the same fit & function.

With this pistol if a part breaks and has to be replaced with a drop in part manufactured to specific dimensions will that affect accuracy & function? It should but the degree of change will in large be subject to the amount of wear present in the mating parts.

I think we are basically saying the same thing just in a different light. It would most likely take a LONG time & a lot of use before any appreciable difference would be seen, but changes would occur. My point is I just don't think this approach justifies 5K. Basically all pistols are designed to operate within a range of tolerances; some are just more precise than others. YMMV. Bob

[dV8r]

Range of Tolerance where a machine will function and operate is one thing. Precision tight tolerance being the mantra this company is touting is a different beast & one that will wear away. Proper maintenance will slow down wear but parts still do wear and the "Precise Fit" will be different. In a previous life I owned a chain manufacturing company and made the tools for those machines. I had to make the tools & various parts as they wore down. They had to be hand fit with a high degree of precision. Tolerances changed over time as did the dimensions of the parts we replaced to achieve the same fit & function.

With this pistol if a part breaks and has to be replaced with a drop in part manufactured to specific dimensions will that affect accuracy & function? It should but the degree of change will in large be subject to the amount of wear present in the mating parts.

I think we are basically saying the same thing just in a different light. It would most likely take a LONG time & a lot of use before any appreciable difference would be seen, but changes would occur. My point is I just don't think this approach justifies 5K. Basically all pistols are designed to operate within a range of tolerances; some are just more precise than others. YMMV. Bob
Time will tell...
From my 40+ years of experience in manufacturing, machining and automation, I believe that you will be surprised by the outcome. I doubt that I will be around to see this in 10-20 years, just hope that you all are. :)

[boblenaere]

dV8r: First I hope you are around in 10-20 years. And agree that down the road we may have some more amazing computerized machining processes that will be able to produce affordable, quality firearms with an increased longevity in regards to precision performance. For me I can get a good 1911 below a grand with great shooting ability and that will last a long time (COLT is a good example.) To me that is a great value and a quality firearm which works well right out of the box. I can put a little dough into it and tweak it or pay a little more (under 2 grand) and get a Les Baer and have a superb 1911 which to me is also a great value. Paying 4-5 grand to pay for and accomodate Cabot's bloated manufacturing costs represents no value to me and in my opinion is money that can be much more wisely spent elsewhere. Whoopee I can drop in a part if it fails; with the 4 grand I would save by buying a Colt I can have a whole lot of $$ to a. fix, adjust, fine tune & improve it either myself or pay someone to do it. And still have a whole lot of $$ left over for ammo etc. b. buy 4 of them and not worry about anything. Most people will never be able to utilize the full accuracy potential of any of these pistols if they even possess it (we have not even had any validation of how they perform at this point yet everyone is falling all over themselves to try to justify Cabots inflated prices).

There are some gorgeous custom made guns that I would be willing to part with significant money to own. Some pistols may appreciate in value. Looking at Cabots line I frankly don't think they are very good looking pistols and I doubt they will appreciate in value; where is the collectibility? If anything a buyer is more likely going to take a big hit on depreciation of these guns.

If Cabot had used their processes to come up with their own unique, groundbreaking handgun design that would have peaked my interest. But to take a 100 hundred year old design and dramatically increase its production costs without any real significant valuable benefit to the end user????

[Frank]

We seem to have reached a point at which we're just rehashing the same arguments. It will be interesting to see what Rio Vista Slim has to say after he visit the folks at United and tries out one of the guns.

At the end of the day, whether Cabot has anything to offer will be decided in the marketplace.

So we'll call it a day here.

DVC