PDA

View Full Version : Colt New Agent - Dbl action or not?



SteveKo
29th January 2011, 21:23
I saw that the New Agent comes with a Double Action option. I always thought the double action was a great feature. Can people explain what is good and bad with double action pistols? It's really all about that first shot.. right? Either you just pull the trigger with the DA or you pull back the hammer before pulling the trigger. Curious people's thoughts on each.

Thanks.

Jason8844
29th January 2011, 22:10
I saw that the New Agent comes with a Double Action option. I always thought the double action was a great feature. Can people explain what is good and bad with double action pistols? It's really all about that first shot.. right? Either you just pull the trigger with the DA or you pull back the hammer before pulling the trigger. Curious people's thoughts on each.

Thanks.

I am a fan of single action myself. I have a New Agent in .45 and love it!

As to your comment (Either you just pull the trigger with the DA or you pull back the hammer before pulling the trigger), you should know there is another option. Carry the gun "cocked and locked". This is the original intent of the weapon with the grip and thumb safeties. When carrying in this mode, the hammer is already back and the quick release of the thumb safety will allow the hammer to fall when you are ready to fire. There is no need to recock the trigger.

I also believe in the laws of mechanics. The more moving parts a machine has the more likely it will be to fail. DA vs. SA is an easy choice for me. Although I love my new Beretta M9, if my life depended on it, I would rather have my Colt Government Model M1911 at my side.

Just my 2 cents. I hope I did not offend anyone!

BigE
30th January 2011, 09:25
The first round out of the pistol is the most critical, while DA may at times be fast it is seldom as accurate as SA. What good is faster if you miss your target? You may not get a second shot if your first round misses.

Ric4509
30th January 2011, 10:01
I for one is for a SA 1911 and carry my pistol cocked and locked. I have owned Para LDAs that in the beginning I had to get used to its DA feature. I prefer SA.

Hawkmoon
30th January 2011, 10:09
I saw that the New Agent comes with a Double Action option. I always thought the double action was a great feature. Can people explain what is good and bad with double action pistols? It's really all about that first shot.. right? Either you just pull the trigger with the DA or you pull back the hammer before pulling the trigger. Curious people's thoughts on each.
The advantage to a DA is that you can carry uncocked, with the hammer down, and still be able to draw and fire without having to manually cock the pistol. The disadvantage is that the first shot is different ... much heavier.

This, of course, applies to a "traditional" DA/SA, where the first shot is DA and the rest are SA. This does not apply to DAO (double action only). IIRC, the Colts will be traditional DA/SA. As noted above, you can carry cocked-and-locked, or you can manually cock the pistol when you draw (either with the hammer, as you suggest, or by carrying with an empty chamber and employing an Israeli draw).

But, if you're going to do any of those ... they are all options also applicable to a standard, single action 1911, so why buy a double action version if you're not going to use the double action feature?

ashmesajim
30th January 2011, 10:29
The New Agent currently is gonna be DOA. A DA/SA may be in the works according to the Colt person I spoke to at the Shot Show.

kenhwind
30th January 2011, 10:49
I looked at a FN pistol that was DA/SA in the true sense in that the safety lock/thumb safety was also a decocker. The pistol had ambidextrous controls. Therefore the pistol was either a SA and could be cocked and locked, or carried as Hawkmoon described, hammer down on loaded chamber and ready to fire DA. The trend in the Military seems to be towards a pistol with these features.
I assume that the best feature of a pistol with this type of action is that when the pistol is used in an engagement it can be placed on safety and be instantly ready for a follow up shot, or decocked to place the pistol in a somewhat safer mode(?). The best feature of a DA is that a second hammer strike can be applied in case of a failure to fire. The worst feature is the difference between the DA first shot and the SA second shot, which as Colonel Cooper noted is difficult to master.
I personally have little interest in a DA semi-auto pistol unless it had the SA locked feature whereas the first shot would be the same as subsequent shots.

SteveKo
30th January 2011, 11:32
Thanks for the replies. Putting aside the cocked and locked option, do people feel they can draw their gun, cock the hammer and get off a more reliable or meaningful shot faster then with a DA? I understand that the feel will be totally different on that first shot but wouldn't, in certain circumstances, a quick first shot followed by a second more accurate shot have the advantage? I did say "in certain circumstances" because you always want to make sure your going to hit the target your aiming at so EVERY shot has to count.. but pull, point, best aim,squeeze, better aim, squeeze, better aim, squeeze.. seems a better flow then pull, point, hammer cock, aim, squeeze, better aim, squeeze, etc..

Ashmesajim: Are you saying the New Agent DA is NOT a DA/SA pistol? If it's DAO then I've made my choice on a SA but still need to think more if it's a DA/SA..

kenhwind
30th January 2011, 14:16
Trying to draw and cock a firearm in a state of duress or during a confrontation is not pratical. I carry a Colt Detective Special 2 inch barreled .38 Special revolver and would not consider cocking the hammer unless I was going to have time to make a concentrated shot. When I shoot this handgun I shoot it double action.

I too think that the new Colt DA semi-auto pistols are DAOnly and would function like shooting a revolver DA where each shot requires the same longer trigger pull

kenhwind
30th January 2011, 14:20
The Colt site refers to the pistol in question as DAO: double action only
http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/tabid/61/CatID/13/Default.aspx

Spyros
30th January 2011, 15:10
I fired the Colt at the media day on the 17th, before the SHOT show. It is double action only, with a double strike capability. Nice trigger, with a 'surprise' release.

dakota1911
30th January 2011, 16:16
You know steveko, and others, it is not about me or what I think. If I was you I would find a range that rents pistols and try different types and see what you think. What fits your hand and your background.

Hawkmoon
30th January 2011, 16:26
Putting aside the cocked and locked option, do people feel they can draw their gun, cock the hammer and get off a more reliable or meaningful shot faster then with a DA?
Nope. Not gonna happen. Most likely your thumb will slip off the hammer and while you fumble with your gun, the bad guy will shoot you three times with his gun.


I understand that the feel will be totally different on that first shot but wouldn't, in certain circumstances, a quick first shot followed by a second more accurate shot have the advantage? I did say "in certain circumstances" because you always want to make sure your going to hit the target your aiming at so EVERY shot has to count.. but pull, point, best aim,squeeze, better aim, squeeze, better aim, squeeze.. seems a better flow then pull, point, hammer cock, aim, squeeze, better aim, squeeze, etc..
It is unlikely that a self defense shooting will ever involve this "aim" concept you keep mentioning. The more likely sequence is "Pull, point, pray ... BANG!"

Hawkmoon
30th January 2011, 16:29
The New Agent currently is gonna be DOA. A DA/SA may be in the works according to the Colt person I spoke to at the Shot Show.
You are correct, I must have mis-remembered. Colt's web site lists both the New Agent and the full-size double action models as DAO.

Rich-D
30th January 2011, 18:25
In a gun incident, fractions of a second can mean whether one has any time left on earth. I'll stick with the faster and more accurate Cocked and Locked Single Action!

egumpher
30th January 2011, 19:30
In a gun incident, fractions of a second can mean whether one has any time left on earth. I'll stick with the faster and more accurate Cocked and Locked Single Action!

Amen....

Rgds
Eric

proscene
1st February 2011, 12:03
The New Agent currently is gonna be DOA. A DA/SA may be in the works according to the Colt person I spoke to at the Shot Show.

I'm confused. Exactly what did you mean when you say "the New Agent is going to be DOA"?

Snowflake, AZ
1st February 2011, 12:30
"DAO" is for "Double Action Only."

Now to my 2 cents. I work in law enforcement and our department issues the sig sauer 229. This is a double action/single action pistol similar to the FN someone mentioned earlier on this thread. You typically carry it "de cocked" which gives you a double action trigger pull on your first shot, but as the slide cycles all of your follow-up shots are single action.

Now Sig builds a very good gun and I have always been complemetary towards Sig. However, I always struggled with the double/single action. As we would qualify, I would draw and cock the hammer so that I fired on Single action the entire time. Of course in a gun fight, this would never be able to happen, so I was practicing a very bad habit. Then I fired my first 1911, one belonging to my brother in law. I was immediately in love. I purchased my first Kimber 1911 within a week, have owned a total of 4 Kimbers, one Sig 1911, and an Ed Brown 1911. I have exclusively carried the 1911 for about 8 years now (Our department issues Sigs, but also allows us to carry our preference is we purchase it).

Now if you purchase a DAO, you won't have the exact same problem I had since you have double action everytime, remember, Double Action Only. I have tried a few DAO's, Para's 1911 for example. Although they have a smooth trigger and it is much lighter and shorter than a Sig double/single, in my opinion, they just don't cut the mustard. My preference is a single action.

In my debates with Glock fanatics, I have learned to be a little more politically correct and not knock on other people's guns. In reality you should carry whatever you prefer. Someone mentioned shooting a DAO and see if you prefer it. This is good sound advice. Some people prefer a Glock, some people prefer a Sig, heck, some people might even prefer a Hi Point. I just happen to prefer a single action 1911.

But enough with being politically correct, we're on the M1911 Forum. You're an idiot if you don't buy a model 1911 with Single action of course. And what the heck, while we're being blunt, don't be a wuss, carry the sucker cocked and locked. What good is an unloaded or uncocked gun?

SamRudolph
1st February 2011, 17:43
I saw that the Colt DAO 1911s, the new ones, seem to have trigger pulls in the gazillion pound range. I hope they fix that before they start shipping them to dealers.

Unkei
1st February 2011, 18:27
The trigger pull was why I went with the single action over the DAO. Reviews stated the DAO pull was in the 12 pound neighborhood. Just too hard to shoot in my humble opinion.
As for the single action Colt..I carry cocked and locked as do most. Three things have to happen for it to fire. The safety must be off, the grip safety must be fully depressed, and the trigger must be pulled. That sounds pretty safe to me!

Spyros
1st February 2011, 19:08
The pull on the DAO Colt didn't seen too heavy to me. I had no way of measuring it, but I certainly don't think it was in double figures. It felt heavier than a Para LDA that I dry-fired a few minutes later. I think I'd prefer the pull of the latter, which also comes with the external safeties of the 1911. But, in my mind this isn't really a fair comparison, because as far as I'm concerned, any pistol without a second-strike capability is best described as 'Single Action Only'. I know I'm in a minority in this one (I avoid saying it within earshot of Glock owners, in particular) and obviously it's at odds with the decisions of various legal, law enforcement and sporting authorities...

Still, watching someone (partially) racking the slide of their pistol (or the bolt of their shotgun), to cock the hammer/striker and then hearing them saying that my 1911 is more dangerous because it's a SA design, is something I find just a tad pretentious.

SamRudolph
2nd February 2011, 08:29
The pull on the DAO Colt didn't seen too heavy to me. I had no way of measuring it, but I certainly don't think it was in double figures. It felt heavier than a Para LDA that I dry-fired a few minutes later. I think I'd prefer the pull of the latter, which also comes with the external safeties of the 1911.

How recently did you try the DAO Colt? I was just basing my statement off of what the gunblast folks said at the 2010 SHOT show. I heard 12 pounds, which seemed kind of ridiculous since that's more like J-frame trigger pull.

Spyros
2nd February 2011, 09:05
How recently did you try the DAO Colt? I was just basing my statement off of what the gunblast folks said at the 2010 SHOT show. I heard 12 pounds, which seemed kind of ridiculous since that's more like J-frame trigger pull.If the gunblast folks fired it at the media day before SHOT, then we fired the same pistols. I fired the 5" DA Colt, but the trigger on the 3" model felt about the same to me, when dry fired.

proscene
2nd February 2011, 11:56
"DAO" is for "Double Action Only."

Now to my 2 cents. I work in law enforcement and our department issues the sig sauer 229. This is a double action/single action pistol similar to the FN someone mentioned earlier on this thread. You typically carry it "de cocked" which gives you a double action trigger pull on your first shot, but as the slide cycles all of your follow-up shots are single action.

Now Sig builds a very good gun and I have always been complemetary towards Sig. However, I always struggled with the double/single action. As we would qualify, I would draw and cock the hammer so that I fired on Single action the entire time. Of course in a gun fight, this would never be able to happen, so I was practicing a very bad habit. Then I fired my first 1911, one belonging to my brother in law. I was immediately in love. I purchased my first Kimber 1911 within a week, have owned a total of 4 Kimbers, one Sig 1911, and an Ed Brown 1911. I have exclusively carried the 1911 for about 8 years now (Our department issues Sigs, but also allows us to carry our preference is we purchase it).

Now if you purchase a DAO, you won't have the exact same problem I had since you have double action everytime, remember, Double Action Only. I have tried a few DAO's, Para's 1911 for example. Although they have a smooth trigger and it is much lighter and shorter than a Sig double/single, in my opinion, they just don't cut the mustard. My preference is a single action.

In my debates with Glock fanatics, I have learned to be a little more politically correct and not knock on other people's guns. In reality you should carry whatever you prefer. Someone mentioned shooting a DAO and see if you prefer it. This is good sound advice. Some people prefer a Glock, some people prefer a Sig, heck, some people might even prefer a Hi Point. I just happen to prefer a single action 1911.

But enough with being politically correct, we're on the M1911 Forum. You're an idiot if you don't buy a model 1911 with Single action of course. And what the heck, while we're being blunt, don't be a wuss, carry the sucker cocked and locked. What good is an unloaded or uncocked gun?

THX Snowflake for the detailed reply and your opinions, I have two 1911's:
The Kimber Crimson ll & Colt new Agent w/ Crimson Trace grips.

hercster
2nd February 2011, 13:11
I have a DA?SA SIG X-five which is reportedly one of the better versions of that action type. The first pull is very smooth but also long. After getting the gun worked over by Bruce Gray, both the DA and SA triggers are probably as good as they get. The SA is very comparable to my new NH 1911. The difference is in the take up of the SIG and the almost zero take up of my Predator II.

Being new to the 1911, I still feel a little safer with the X-Five but only because I'm not yet attuned to the light NH SAO.

I probably have burned through 2000 rounds of DA/SA shooting with the SIG as I use it for IPSC where the first shot must be DA. At first my DA round was never as controllable as the SA's that follow. I've gotten better but there is no beating the consistent SAO of the NH; if anything (for my skill level) it is just a bit too fast. When the adrenalin is pumping, that second round leaves the barrel extremely quickly.