Frame and Slide Recomendations for Custom 1911

[Deacon Aegis]

Howdy all,
Well I'm gaining a whole ton of experience making the modifications to that little RIA Government I picked up recently, and sure enough, it has given me a real itch to custom build something far more high-end. The general use I would plan on this pistol to be for will be extreme accuracy. I don't forsee myself really getting into speed gun stuff, but I could sincerely appreciate a high-end accurized 1911. I'll probably pester this forum off and on about barrels, trigger components, etc as time passes and I can part this thing together. The little RIA .45 will definately be a fun little plinker, but sometimes a man jus has the itch to own quality and the thought of building a 1911 entirely out of hand-picked parts and personally crafted strikes me as being a highly fulfilling proposition.

I would really like to start with the frame and slide, adding the barrel as the third part obtained for this little project. My preference would be a stainless steel frame and slide, forged, not cast. I've been toying with the idea of a Les Baer, but I honestly don't have the metallurgy skill or the industry experience to make a fully educated guess yet. Any insight or input would be welcome and I thank y'all for your time and consideration.

[garrettwc]

Caspians are a popular choice for slides and frames.

[AnthonyRSS]

Although Caspians frames are cast, they have a lifetime warranty. That oughta tell you something.

You should go with Essex arms. They are cast but I need someone to be a guinea pig before I try their stuff out. :D

[John]

You should go with Essex arms. They are cast but I need someone to be a guinea pig before I try their stuff out.

He should go with Essex, so that he is your guinea pig?

I have no personal experience, but my accomplice here, Hawkmoon has build a pistol out of a Caspian frame and a Sarco Completion Kit (everything but the frame) and he was very satisfied. I am not sure if I would go his path, if I could do something like that myself, but I would use a Caspian frame without a second thought.

[Deacon Aegis]

The Caspian components are very nice. Based on your suggestions here, I've gone and spent some time on their site and have been looking at their offerings. Very nice products for a surprisingly reasonable price. Like y'all have indicated, the frames have a lifetime warranty even though they are cast. Considering the warranty and reputation, this looks like a very doable solution gents and the results look like they may yield a very nice, higher-end shooter. After I get my Christmas shopping done, I may see if I can squeeze out a frame and slide from them before the end of the year. ;)

Thanks again, y'all rock.

[stans]

Essex is "ok", but Caspian is, by far, superior.

[shoe1966]

I would take a Caspian over an Essex any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Call Caspian at one time they did make bar stock frames. I have 5 1911 style pistols all have been built with Caspian frames and 4 with their slide. I would highly recommend them.

[Hawkmoon]

He should go with Essex, so that he is your guinea pig?

I have no personal experience, but my accomplice here, Hawkmoon has build a pistol out of a Caspian frame and a Sarco Completion Kit (everything but the frame) and he was very satisfied. I am not sure if I would go his path, if I could do something like that myself, but I would use a Caspian frame without a second thought.
My criteria were different. I wanted to build a pistol just to learn how it works. When I started, I was of the attitude that if it actually functioned when I was done, it would be an unexpected fringe benefit.

The parts kit I bought was definitely "budget" stuff, of indeterminate origin. The fact that it went together in the Caspian frame with very minimal fitting tells me that the Caspian frame was, as they advertise, right on the money for tolerances. Now that it is finished, I consider my Caspian to be a shooter, of the "truck gun" variety. For building a gun with accuracy as the goal, I would not hesitate to use a Caspian frame but I would go with a Caspian slide to match, and pay the extra bucks to let them lap them together. Then buy a quality barrel and bushing somewhere and you should be good to go.

[horse 91-A1]

I am in the same category for a build up. I built an Essex frame with GI surplus parts and added a NM barrel in the early 70s and it's going strong today; however, I am in the process of changing all the springs.

Now my mind has wandered off to building a 10mm longslide with Caspian receiver/slide and Bomar barrel. A question I have is about the different ramp types available with the barrel and what are the advantages/disadvantages of each design? :)

Adios,
Bob

[Deacon Aegis]

Horse 91-A1,
I've actually been working on educating myself on these very questions here recently. (I'm working on two builds at the moment and may start a third soon.) Anyway, I would strongly encourage you to go take a look at the information on Schuemann's web site concerning these very things. A Link to their site follows:

http://www.schuemann.com/

Look specifically for the AET Information link near the bottom left menu and give that a read. If you have difficulty finding it, click the following link and you'll get the info although it will be out of it's frame:

http://www.schuemann.com/Content/aet4.htm

I now know the difference between a Wilson/Nowlin lugged barrel and a Clark/ParaOrd lugged barrel and the newer Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lugged barrels. Also great info on moly and barrel errosion, etc etc. Spend some time there. These guys seem to know what they're talking about and they're presenting the material in a fairly understandable way. More pictures would help...

Anyway, my RIA is in the shop getting a whole ton of welding done to it so I picked up a stainless Caspian frame and have started a long slide build up on it. I'm also seriously considering doing a build on a blued Caspian frame that I've been eying. I figure these three should keep me busy for the next year or so. Hehe ;)

Hope that helps. :)

[Maj Tom]

Check the sites of reputable custom pistol smiths and see what they use for ground up custom guns. Caspian shows up frequently… My custom gun is constructed on a Caspian receiver with a Caspian slide.

[Deacon Aegis]

The Caspian receiver I picked up is definately a sweet base for a precision shooter (or with my current skill set at least something that'll be a good range shooter.) Hehe. I knew the stainless steel was going to be a lot harder to tool than the blued steel of that RIA, but dang this frame is brutally hard! I'm thinking I need a disk sander to even touch the cut for the beaver tail. After this one, I'm going to be sure to get the next set of Caspian frames I order already with the cut done. As soon as I have something more to show, I'll put up some pics. Right now I don't even have the slide ordered, so not much but a frame to look at. ;) I'm getting good before and after pics though, so I'll have the whole build in photos. I'm working very, very slowly as well. No need to rush things and I would rather do it right the first time than do it quick.

[horse 91-A1]

Thank you Deacon for the heads up on the links. When my brand new Glock 20 went south I brought out the Essex/Remington M1911/A1 and hammered 150 rounds of 230gr Golden Sabers and Win white box with Colt and MecGar mags w/o any problems. Altogether about 400 rounds since summer with zero defects and the Glock has to back to the factory because of numerous and different kinds of problems - only 600 rounds since July. Longslide for the Glock should be in production first quarter of next year but the selling price is a stout $560USD ballpark plus the cost of the barrel and spring change.

After the way the Essex shot it was only a matter of time before a new project will begin. I haven't decided on which receiver/slide metal yet; I have matte stainless, bright stainless, parkerized, black, green and blued in sidearms and two black longarm home defense types.

Adios,
Bob

[Deacon Aegis]

The issues with your Glock is a real bummer and I hate to hear that it is giving you any troubles. My carry gun is a Glock 21 and I pound about 500 rounds a month through it and have never so much as seen it hickup. As far as everything else, I've usually got to tweak something or tune something and then I can dump some rounds through it before another tune up. I'm actually amazed your Glock is giving you any issues at all. If mine barfed like it sounds yours has been doing I would absolutely replace it. They're just too simple a gun to have those types of problems.

Now, all that said, I'd trust my Glock to go BANG any and every time I pull the trigger, but I hate the dang gun with a passion. It feels like I'm shooting a mean little toy and has none of the handling characteristics of hot iron. The Caspian frame in my hand feels better than the Glock complete... I bet I have no issues round after round with this Caspian either. I've so fallen in love with the 1911's shooting characteristics as well as the ability to tailor and refine the handgun specifically to its roll and my preferences that I've blown nearly $3K tooling up to work on them, customize them, and basically build, build, build. I was desperately wanting a fulfilling hobby and this has so totally fit the bill. I love learning and creating and things are just clicking with this.

Yep, I'll continue to carry my Glock, but that's more because I don't care about it getting beat up with daily wear and tear. My 1911's well the RIA will always be expiremental gun 01. Hehe This Caspian I am currently building I'll probably turn around and sell when it is complete unless I screw it up some how. (I'll be having a real smith go over it with a microscope before it ever gets shot.) If this one can fund two more frames and slides, I'm on my way to becoming a happy hobbyist :)

[Iron bottom]

I went with a Baer frame and slide. Be aware that Baer slides do not have .45 firing pins. They use the smaller (9mm-38 super) firing pins. Bob tailed the frame. Nearly finished except for testing at the range and final polishing and bluing. I had no problems with the Baer frame and slide. Cast is probably fine, I just decided to go with forged. Later, Iron bottom.

[Deacon Aegis]

I was pretty stuck on forged myself when I first started playing with the idea of custom building. Ultimately it has boiled down to economics right now. I spent almost 3K just starting to tool up and a bunch of that was harbor freight tools at that... Since the Caspian frames and slides are guaranteed for life, and they average $100+ less per component, I figure I can afford to settle for the Caspians for a while. I'm also not particularly thrilled that the Les Baer hardware can only be had in the cuts and configurations you have in their catalog. The Caspians I can get pretty much blank of all serrations, logos, etc and then have the parts milled to my specifications.

My builds have some substantiial alterations as compared to the million other Kimber look alikes running around and I'm being very expiremental with the designs. I'm not altering mechanics or mass ratios at all, but let's just say that some of what I'm doing is a bit unconventional. Hopefully over the course of the next couple of months, I'll have several pieces to show. Fortunately I've managed to befriend a really good pistol smith who I consult before making the changes I'm making, so I'm not relying on my perception of what is acceptible and what is not. Hehe. I'm also very conservative about my designs when it comes to even effecting the mass of the slide or trigger or hammer or what have you.

I will probably one day do a few builds on the Les Baer platform and either use Caspian slides or see how blank their slides can be bought at the time. Making the changes I'm making already has me somewhat insecure on the Caspians as my skills have a long way to go yet. Somehow tearing up a Les Baer almost feels like sacrilige to me right now. I wish I could get some of these designs more fully closer to completion so I could post the pics, but I'm simply moving to slow with the metals right now for them to be very interesting. I tend to agree though in that I've just always been of the understanding that the forged metals produce an overall superior "tuning" to a firearm and I will definately be working with both down the road.

The Les Baer stuff is elite, no doubt, but from what I understand, the STI stuff is running the bleeding edge of accuracy and high-technology handguns right now, though speed guns are certainly not my thing. Over-all, I'm after the same thing the sages amongst us preach, reliability, reliabilty, reliability firat and foremost. Form can follow function, but not preceed it and I want to make sure any firearm I craft is capable of delivering exactly that. Having started to work with the Caspian frames now, I am more than confortable with the ability to deliver that on these platforms. As an interim, I may spend some time playing around with the Wilson slides and frames. They are forged and even less expensive than the Caspian offerings. Thanks a bunch for your input and I do envy you your Les Paul frame and slide. They make superior equippment from all I've seen and heard, you just always pay for it...

Peace :D

[Iron bottom]

LES PAUL!!! I'll have you know I'm a Strat and Twin Reverb guy. :) I worked mostly with hand tools. A mill would be nice though. A piece of floated glass will suffice for sanding things flat if one doesn't have a mill. Slow, but much less chance of a costly mistake.
I agree that reliability is paramount. I didn't skimp on the smaller parts. EGW hammer, sear, disconnector, firing pin stop and pin set. Baer firing pin and ejecter. Wolff springs. Hardcore slide stop. Kart barrel. Ed Brown barrel bushing and thumb safety. Some of Tuner's (flat,dimpled follower,Wolff springs, 7 round) Metalform mags etc.
I spent a lot of time on fitting. Slide to frame, bushing to slide, hood to slide and lugs to slide stop pin.The thing is tight and smooth. Getting it nice looking will take some time. I want it to look like guns used to look. Glossy, deep blue with no checkering. I look foward to seeing your ideas. Later, Iron bottom.

[Deacon Aegis]

Aye Indeed! I will confess though, (and don't let Tuner or John or any of that ilk hear this) this stainless steel frame is so hard that I am litterally having to clean the file between every three strokes and I've hardly even gotten a shine started where I've been working at it for four or fiive hours now. I'm seriously considering busting the dremel tool out and mounting it in a router frame, setting up a table jig, and going after it like that until I get a bit closer to the radius jig. I can seriously understand why everyone says stay well away from the dremel, but I see one on every smith's desk. Hehe

LOL yeah I was chilling to Alice in Chains, Def Leppard, Pink Floyd, Guns n' Roses, and Metallica most of the night last night as I started doing my layout for this stainless. It's christmas... Always go on the funk. Hehe

[vesmcd]

Deacon, this is kind of a carry over from your other post, for an informed suggestion on a frame/slide combo ask Ken Crawley.

[horse 91-A1]

I've been thinking about a Caspian titanium frame with SS slide when I came across this link to an article testing a Gunsite model.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3623/is_200209/ai_n9127118 (http://)

I also noticed they went with a Kart match barrel that relates better to the other build-up thread. :)

Adios,
Bob

[Deacon Aegis]

vesmcd,
Yeah I know I should hit him up for more info. I sent him an email the other day and he still hasn't replied. He had also let me know that things were getting pretty durn busy for him around Christmas, so I've been reluctant to pester him. Instead, I figured I'd show up here and pester you all. ;)

[vesmcd]

Deacon, I have no doubt Ken will reply soon, but here is my $2 worth( used to be 2 cents, inflation don'tcha know). What ever you go with, get a pre-fitted slide/frame kit, unless you are just a glutton for punishment.Unless you have a mill and know how to use it , you won't be able to get as durable a slide/frame fit as the kits.

[Deacon Aegis]

Vesmcd,
Yeah I'm not at all worried about him taking his time to reply. He very much left me knowing how busy he was going to be until after the new year and I'm in no rush to interfere with his family activities this season.

I think you're steering me very well in recomending having the frame and slide factory lapped to like 90% as a matched set to save myself the personal agony and that is definatley how I'm going to do my next two builds after I get this stainless job I'm messing with now knocked out. The way I want the slides delivered is pretty specific as well. I wish I could get the slides cast the way I want them, but according to Seth up there at Caspian, changes to that process begin at about 8K and easily climb in excess of 15k or more. I'll be keeping Ken busy off and on this coming year. ;)

[evolvedguns]

Does anyone know if its possible to get a slide that is blank? Not just without cocking serrations and stirrup cut...but without the rounding on the top? I believe "flat topping" a slide just takes additional material off of a rounded slide. If I could get one truely blank (basically a big block of metal with the "inside" stuff machined, then more things become possible like this Tiki 1911
http://www.sviguns.com/tiki_pr.html
Or something like that.

[rjm713]

OK I guess i'm a guinea pig. My order for a Essex SS Commander frame is shipping today. I decided against the kit for parts and wonder if that was the right thing to do--buying the parts seperately is costing more but then again I won't have to replace them with better parts later so it should be a wash. I will use the Essex SS slide but haven't decided on whose barrel yet.
This is going to cost more than buying a Rock but I will know it inside out and that should count for something.

[John]

Does anyone know if its possible to get a slide that is blank? Not just without cocking serrations and stirrup cut...but without the rounding on the top? I believe "flat topping" a slide just takes additional material off of a rounded slide. If I could get one truely blank (basically a big block of metal with the "inside" stuff machined, then more things become possible like this Tiki 1911
http://www.sviguns.com/tiki_pr.html
Or something like that.
I do not know for sure, but try contacting Gary at Caspian Arms. He has a lot of options for his slides, maybe he can accomodate your request.

[evolvedguns]

I do not know for sure, but try contacting Gary at Caspian Arms. He has a lot of options for his slides, maybe he can accomodate your request.
Thanks John, I'll give it a try and report back.

[TheGerk]

Deacon, Thanx for the Schuemann links, good stuff

[secinv]

I just picked up a Caspian 1911 Classic (custom) pistol from my gunsmith in Rhode Island. I have no doubt that Caspian makes the best frames and slides for the 1911. I did some research and found no better reputation or quality in the industry, and in addition they give a lifetime warranty. Their work speaks for itself and I could not consider any other product. Buy Caspian.....

The cost for me was just under $2,000.00 and well worth the investment. I basically had the best pieces added to the 1911 and when I shot yesterday, observed the quality of Caspian....

If you want a truly superior 1911, go ahead and build one from a Caspian frame and slide or have a gunsmith do it. I am more than satisfied with the final product!!!

Best of luck!

Stephen

[evolvedguns]

Here is the response from Gary at Caspian


We can get you a clean slide but the shape of our forgings will no allow us to provide you with the "boxy" top

Thanks,
Gary


Sounds like its not exactly what I had in mind.

[Deacon Aegis]

I did some research and found no better reputation or quality in the industry, and in addition they give a lifetime warranty. Their work speaks for itself and I could not consider any other product. Buy Caspian.....


Now although I am very happy with my many, many Caspian slides and frames, when it came to picking frames for my Damascus collection I went with Les Baer forged frames which are in my opinion the definitive standard for single stack frames without challenge. Caspian frames are excellent, that it is true, but I've built enough of them now to know their quirks as well and the Les Baer forged frames have proven to be consistently superior, though a bit more difficult to work with as Les Baer tends to leave a little material on each side of the frame to absorb tooling marks from the build and which must be removed and surfaced prior to final finishing.

The Caspian slides are indeed my prefered choice for the bulk of my builds, however the STI slides are arguably equally as high in quality and there is little doubt as to the precision and consistency of quality the STI slides deliver. I don't have any experience with the Les Baer slides, but I suspect they are also of the highest quality and one would not go wrong basing their build on these.

The STI frames are also on my list of frames to try. They look good and there are features and options one could get from nowhere else but through them. In the single stack variety, they offer a selection of three (3) different frames that are investment cast frames and one (1) forged frame. (Sorry Ivan, they have indeed moved away from utilizing the forged frames as much as they used to, but they still have a forged frame in their line-up.)

Ultimately, there is a bit of a selection to choose from in the field of component excellence. Caspian makes superior components (as far as frames and slides go), but to single them out without considering these others superior components as well would be like selling only a third of the pie in every box. Hehe.

[Joni Lynn]

I think for the non-professional contemplating building a 1911 the Caspian is the best idea. They can mate frame and slide and have a lot of options available.

[Deacon Aegis]

True Lynnie, though you can also get a mated Les Baer from Brownell's, the price difference between going LB when the quality of Caspian totally delivers as well does tend to push those LB shortblocks out of the running for best bang (hehe) for the buck. :D

... and aint I one of those non-professionals? I selected LB for certain projects... Hehe

[Deacon Aegis]

BTW, Why in the heck was this ancient poofta thread resurrected? What crack was being smoked? LOL

[OD*]

How many 1911s have you built Matt?

[Deacon Aegis]

Working on my 12th one right now, of which seven of these builds are in my personal collection. If you want, I can post some pics later this evening on the STI/Caspian gov I'm working on.

[OD*]

Hey, we love pictures! http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Just so I'm clear, you are personally building them, or are having them built?

[Deacon Aegis]

I am personally building them. I do have four pistols that I am having built for me, those are the twin Damascus govs and the twin Damascus Long Slides, but the 1911's I'm referring to as "my" builds are truly built by me. (Of course I will from time to time have Ken Crawley help with some of the steps I am either still rough in or still lacking skills on.) I tend to have Ken make all my sight cuts and set the sights for me and there is the occassional trigger job clean-up or thumb safety refinement he does for me, but for the most part, unless I screw up a barrel fitting or something like that, I do the work myself.

[OD*]

Very cool, sir!

Thank you.

[Deacon Aegis]

Well I'm by no means on the skill level of someone like 1911Tuner, but I'll bust out the digital camera tonight and over the course of the week get some pics for ya. I've been trying to get three builds I've got in various stages right now done before I really show them off because I ran the slides through the bluing tanks a few weeks back so I could work on them a bit more leisurely without worrying about the high-carbons corroding, so they look like two-tones right now though the reality is these slides are destined for a brushed/matte hard chrome finish, so some of the builds right now may prove misleading if I show them as they are currently on my bench.

[1911Tuner]

Well I'm by no means on the skill level of someone like 1911Tuner

You might not say that if you watched me hit a frame with a hammer...

:lh:

Gawd! I love that laughin' horse!

If you've been careful and patient, it'll turn out fine. The 1911?
Well...it ain't exactly a Swiss watch.

[rjm713]

Well my Essex frame has arrived and boy does it look good. Also have parts coming in almost daily--Ed Brown, McCormick, Wolff and so on. My guess about the higher cost of not buying a build kit was correct. Everything looks good so far although I can see the "beavertail" will require a little fitting.
Back to the frame I was pleased to find the plunger tube and grip screw busings were solidly staked to the frame and the ejector installed and pinned. I also noted for those concerned that Essex also provides a lifetime warranty so I have no worries there.
As soon as one or two more items arrive I'll try for some pics. My goal will be to complete the Commander sometime next month. (fingers crossed)

[Joni Lynn]

I have this urge (so far under control) to build my own 1911.............and I have no clue (well,........ok maybe a slight clue) what I'm doing in that regard.
You guys are making it worse..............You have me drooling on my Caspian catalog again..............;)

[Deacon Aegis]

You might not say that if you watched me hit a frame with a hammer...

:lh:

Gawd! I love that laughin' horse!

If you've been careful and patient, it'll turn out fine. The 1911?
Well...it ain't exactly a Swiss watch.

Johnny,
I hope you know sir that it is all your fault that I'm going to have to attend a 1911 builder 12 step program. Yes, sir! If you hadn't provided such concise and knowledable information here in my formative years, I wouldn't face a future of such horrors as rooms stuffed with parts that "someday" will go into a build and walls cluttered with shelves containing a variety of 1911 builds in various states of progress!

Alas between you, a few other members here, and Ken Crawley I am doomed I tell you! Doooooooomed....

But it sure is about the greatest way I can think of passing any idle time I might someday experience. Mwahahaha.

Hat's off to ya sir. Thanks for all of your contributions to us amateur bench bums. :D

I have this urge (so far under control) to build my own 1911.............and I have no clue (well,........ok maybe a slight clue) what I'm doing in that regard.
You guys are making it worse..............You have me drooling on my Caspian catalog again..............

Lynnie, you have always had that type of discerning eye and appreciation of the more refined elements of a firearm's character (such as your appreciation and passion involving the fine woods used in the weapon's furniture) that compels me to do nothing but encourage you to take the plunge and begin a 1911 build-up. The immense sense of fulfillment and satisfaction that I personally derive out of my efforts is beyond my ability to describe. Jump in and enjoy that satisfaction as well. :)

rjm713, take plenty of digital pics along the way as you work on building your baby there. You'll wish you had if you don't. (And we all look forward to the progress on your project as well.):)