springfield fullsize jams out of box

[drjoe]

OK, first off, I'm new to the site. i don't have a lot of technical knowledge about parts and the like, so excuse my ignorance. i am hoping that someone can help point me in the right direction about fixing a jam problem...

i own a springfield parkerized fullsize 1911 (PX9109L) -- bought it new. it has, ever since i've owned it, had problems with frequent jams (about 1:20). it occurs without consistent pattern but usually midway through the magazine. the spent cartridge isn't ejecting properly -- the rim of the spent casing is trapped behind what i assume is the extractor and the front of the spent casing is pointed upwards but jammed up against the proximal end of the barrel (not sticking out like a complete stovepipe). it doesn't easily dislodge when opening the slide, because the rim is firmly stuck in the extractor and you have to reach in there, with the slide partially back, to sort of pick it out. sorry, no pictures.

any recommendations? based on what i've read and what appears to be happening, this doesn't sound like a "limp wrist" or magazine problem, but an extractor problem and that i should get it adjusted or put in a new Wilson extractor. is such a replacement covered by warranty or should i just go to a local smith and get this adjusted? or am I off-base and something else the matter.

i admit that i use crappy shooting range reloads. perhaps that is a problem, but i don't see why a good firearm shouldn't be able to handle just about any kind of round.

mainly i want help with this, but as an aside, i'm also just a bit curious as to why the 1911 is such a worshipped firearm if jam problems are so frequent (again, based on what i've read). i can accept that each needs to be tuned to get it into fine working shape if that is indeed the case, but i owned a taurus PT-92 and jams were rarely if ever a problem.

joe

[Hunter]

It would sound as the extractor has a touch to much tension. The extractor is trapping the case rim and not letting the ejector do it's job. If you do not feel confident in adjusting the extractor tension I would imagine a gunsmith would not charge too much to do it as it should not take too long.

[drjoe]

i'm willing to try if it's not too hard... where can i find instructions?

[John]

In the Technical Issues forum, you will find a test for the extractor. Although, some how, I tend to believe it is not the extractor which is to be blamed. The extractor can put only so much tension. As the slide comes back and the case hits the ejector it rotates around the extractor claw and is thrown out of the ejection port.

I tend to believe it is more of a ammo issue (maybe too long cases?) or a too-stiff recoil spring issue, not allowing the slide to go fully backwards.

Oh, do you have any shock buffer in that gun?

[drjoe]

what's shock buffer?

[John]

A shock buffer is a small plastic thing that is put on the recoil spring guide rod, supposedly to cushion the pistol from the impact of the slide, as it moves backwards. It looks like one of these:

http://www.m1911.com/images/product/2B.jpg

[drjoe]

no, don't have one of those in there.

[103]

I know next to nothing about gunsmithing, so I'll just relate some of what I've read in the Springfield forum. Apparently, it isn't uncommon for the SA's to have issues with the extractor tension. I know it's a problem with my GI (that I haven't fixed yet because I'm lazy and finals are the devil) and many others have dealt with it. It's apparently really easy to fix, but, again, I haven't done it. These guys in the smithing forum are obviously great, but you might have better luck asking about this in the SA forum as I most there are very familiar with this problem. What you're describing happens to me about one in twenty rounds--not good.

[John]

First things first. The 1911 is one of the most reliable designs found in firearms. There are people in here, who own 1911s from before WWII, which still function flawlessly. Every company can come out with a lemon, and if you consider the sheer number of 1911s sold, it's only natural that the lemons are more.

Regarding your problem, first of all let's try and figure out, if the pistol opens up completely. So take your pistol and move the slide all the way to the rear. Engage the slide stop. Is this done OK? I mean can the slide lock back fine? When the slide is at its rear-most position, the tip of the slide stop should be a little forward from the edge of the slide stop notch on the slide. Does that work OK?

Second, read the Extractor test in the Technical Issues forum. Do the test as described and tell us the results.

We'll nail this one, don't you worry.

[bearandoldman]

I have the same model and mine works flawlessly. I tend th think along the lines of weak ammo. You mentioned that you are using range reloads, get a box or two of quality ammo, PMC, Federal, WWB and give taht a try, I believe that will solve your problem. If you want to keep shooting the range ammo you may have to change to a lighter recoils spring to compensate for the weak reloads. I have the same problems with my Micro when using Wolf, a weak load will short cycle the gun and not eject the empty case properly.

[1911Tuner]

A question or two...

Does the gun occasionally crunch the case between slide and barrel hood on the last round? This particular jam will be more straight-line than stovepipe,
and the case mouth will be seriously mangled. If this happens, the extractor is clocking and dropping the case. More tension MAY help...

Also a chance...although slight...that the extractor hook is too deep and getting the rim into a bind between the rear face of the hook and the ejector. This most often occurs with an extended ejector, but has been observed with the standard GI type.

The third posibility is that the case rim is riding over the top of the ejector
and getting trapped. Once in a while, I'll run into a Springfield slide with the breechfce cut so as to allow that to happen. More extractor tension may help, but if the out of spec breechface is too far out...it won't.

The fourth possibility is related to the third, but not as bad. It may simply be that the ejector is out of spec, and the case isn't givin' it a healthy smack when the slide travels rearward.

My best WAG is that it's a combination of extractor tension and ejector geometry. It's usually somethin' simple with these types of stoppages.

Short recoil due to an oversprung slide will mimic this malfunction too. Have you installed a heavy recoil spring recently?

[drjoe]

well, okay. first, john, the slide seems to go back just fine -- it locks in the slide stop and racks to the rear of it as well. when shooting, the slide locks back after the last round (though i do seem to remember that the very first time i shot this a while back, it may have failed to do this on one occasion, but not since).

i will attempt firing with decent ammo the next time i make it to the range. however, economically, it just doesn't make sense to target shoot with good ammo, or is that what folks do? my range has a good deal on fiocchi -- is that stuff no good?

regarding the extractor test, i consider myself a reasonably technically adept person, but i'm not sure i understand the directions:

1. With the slide taken off the frame and with the barrel removed, slip the rim of a LOADED cartridge under the extractor hook and position it so that the extractor is gripping the case at the center line, as shown in fig 1a and 1b.

okay -- is the extractor still attached to the gun at this point, or was i supposed to remove it somehow (it appears disembodied in the figure)?

2. You should now be able to lightly shake the slide in any direction, without the cartridge falling off. If this test is unsuccessful, you will need to adjust the tension.

shake the slide? i though i was supposed to remove the slide from the frame, so what does that mean, shake the slide?

3. For tension adjustment, place aprox. 1/2" of the tip of the extractor into the extractor channel and apply just enough pressure to slightly bend the extractor. Be careful, a little goes a long way! See figure 1c.

bend it in which direction?

4. Do not put more tension than needed to perform this simple test - too much tension will result in feeding malfunctions whereas too little tension can cause failure to extract and/or erratic ejection.

okay, just how much am i to bend it?


thanks!

joe

[John]

okay -- is the extractor still attached to the gun at this point, or was i supposed to remove it somehow (it appears disembodied in the figure)?

It does not say to remove the extractor from the slide, does it? No the extractor is in the slide, as it was when the gun was firing.

shake the slide? i though i was supposed to remove the slide from the frame, so what does that mean, shake the slide?

You insert the round under the extractor claw, so that the base of the round is touching the breechface. The extractor is supposed to hold the round there, even if you shake the slide a little. Shake it. Like hold it in your hand and shake it?!!

bend it in which direction?

To the direction it puts more pressure on the claw. The 1911 extractor is just like a piece of still which by its shape acts like a spring. It can be moved towards the outside of the slide and when released it returns to its original position. If the test shows that your extractor does not hold the loaded round well, or if the round falls from the slide when shaken, then you have to bend the extractor, so that it puts more pressure to the cartridge rim.

okay, just how much am i to bend it?

I can't tell you that, bend it as much as is necessary so the extractor holds the round on the breechface, even when the slide is shaken.

[drjoe]

Does the gun occasionally crunch the case between slide and barrel hood on the last round?

I would say that the case does get stuck near the barrel hood, but it doesn't get mangled or really bent in any serious way.

Have you installed a heavy recoil spring recently?

no, it's fairly new (well, not used much anyway <500 rounds) and i haven't made any modifications.

It does not say to remove the extractor from the slide, does it? No the extractor is in the slide, as it was when the gun was firing.

ah yes, my bad. the extractor is housed in the slide, duh -- somehow i was thinking it was on the frame. okay, so i put a round in there, tucking the rim under the extractor claw. it does kind of stay in with gentle shaking, but it's a pretty loose fit and it kind of rattles all around (the tip of the round kind of clangs against the barrel wall in a diagonal position, but doesn't actually fall out). i don't know how snug it's supposed to fit, but it seems to be there's a lot of room between the breechface and the extractor claw -- maybe shy of an extra millimeter in addition to the rim part of the round. the side of the rim opposite the extractor comes well off the breechface. i assume this means the extractor should indeed be tightened (bent in the direction of the round).

unfortunately, i'm looking at my manual instructions, and i'm not sure i understand how to remove the extractor. it seems that you need to remove the firing pin first (?), but i don't seem to have a "pin punch" among the tools that came with this gun. it's is possible of course that it fell out and i lost it, but i don't recall ever seeing one.

there is a piece of bent aluminum (about an inch long and bent to 100 degrees or so) in the tool bag -- what's that for?

[Hunter]

You do need to remove the firing pin before you can remove the extractor. I doubt the pistol came with a punch but anything similar smaller in diameter then the end of the firing pin will work. Use that to push in the firing pin the slide the firing pin stop away from the top of the slide. Be careful the firing pin will be under spring tension when you press it into the slide. Once you have the firing pin in your hand then the extractor will pull out. Note how the groove in the extractor lines up with the firing pin stop to help you get it put back together. It is the ejector that is pinned to the frame. The piece of bent aluminum you referred to is to help you take the ils mainspring housing off the frame. On my Springfield the round is help against the breech face and will flop around some but will not fall out.

[John]

OK, I have to recheck those instructions for the test. Let's take it one more time. Remove the slide from the pistol and remove the barrel, bushing, recoil spring guide, recoil spring and cap from the slide. You should now have a slide in your hands, with the firing pin, firing pin stop and extractor only. Now, take a loaded round and with the base of the round flat against the breechface, push it under the extractor claw. The extractor should hold the round there firmly, a little drooping of the nose of the bullet downwards is OK. The round should stay put, even if you shake the slide a little. If the round falls when you shake the slide a little, you need to put some more pressure on the extractor.

Take a nail or anything of smaller diameter than the hole on the firing pin stop and press the firing pin in, while at the same time slide the firing pin stop down. Careful, as Hunter said, the firing pin is under spring pressure, so as soon as the firing pin stop is removed, the firing pin will fly backwards.

With the firing pin and stop removed, you may now pull back on your extractor. Using the nail you used for the firing pin, under the rear of the extractor, pry it out. If it is a little difficult, cover the opposite end of the slide with a piece of cloth and use that edge as a lever to pry out the extractor. You may need to push the extractor claw in the ejection port opening towards the outside of the slide, in order for the extractor to move.

Pull the extractor out until about half of it is still inside its tunnel. Rotate it 180 degrees and now push on the protruding end, towards the right of the slide, in order to put some more pressure on the round. Turn it again 180 degrees, push it back home and repeat the test. Adjust as needed, so that the round is held in the slide, even when you shake the slide. You may need to repeat the procedure a couple of times.

I hope this helps.

[drjoe]

OK, I have to recheck those instructions for the test. Let's take it one more time. Remove the slide from the pistol and remove the barrel, bushing, recoil spring guide, recoil spring and cap from the slide. You should now have a slide in your hands, with the firing pin, firing pin stop and extractor only. Now, take a loaded round and with the base of the round flat against the breechface, push it under the extractor claw. The extractor should hold the round there firmly, a little drooping of the nose of the bullet downwards is OK. The round should stay put, even if you shake the slide a little. If the round falls when you shake the slide a little, you need to put some more pressure on the extractor.

yes, as i said, i performed this test. if i am holding the slide right side up, the round rim on the opposite side of the extractor (left) falls away from the breechface, causing the tip of the round to clunk against the slide opening (ejector port?) so that it is seated diagonally (pointing towards the ejector port with the tip of the round resting against the slide ejector port). it doesn't actually fall out -- the right side of the rim is still seated in the claw. but i assume this is too loose, yes?

[John]

With the slide held vertically, as it is on the gun, when you would be ready to fire the weapon, sights up, ejection port to your right and the loaded cartridge under the extractor hook and its base flat against the breechface, does the round stay there, or it falls? If it stays, shake the slide as it is with the sights up. Shake it roght and left. Does the round fall? If no, you are good to go, if it falls you need to add more tension.

[drjoe]

yes, that's how i has holding the slide -- correct side up as if shooting. it doesn't fall out, but it does flop around and the tip of the round clanks against the ejector port because the left side of the rim comes off the breechface. but it doesnt' fall out. now what?

[drjoe]

Okay, so haven't had a chance to make it back to the range for a while, which gives you an idea of how often I shoot.

As noted above, I performed the extractor test to the best my ability. As I said in my last post, the round stays held, but it flops about and clangs against the slide.

Anyway, I shot about 100 rounds today and there was only one jam this time, at just about halfway through. Cheap ******* that I am, I was still shooting reloads and would only spring for a box of Fiocchi -- interestingly, the one jam occurred on the Fiocchi about halfway through the magazine.

Ah, but at least I came prepared this time -- I have a picture of the jam... hmm, now how do I post it?

[John]

A little more tension on the extractor won't hurt, so that the round doesn't get away from the breechface. Shoot it some more, I think you are experiencing breaking in issues. How many rounds through that pistol again?

[drjoe]

probably only about 500 rounds... could be a breaking in issue, i guess. this was definitely the fewest jams so far...

so, how do i post a picture of the jam?

[John]

Read the FAQ section, everything is in there.

[drjoe]

okay, here's my attempt at loading a picture of the jam:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/drjoe4/detail?.dir=/9b0f&.dnm=2241.jpg&.src=ph

or here if that doesn't work:

http://us.a1.yahoofs.com/users/41ac371bzbd26af6f/9b0f/__sr_/2241.jpg?phgMdMEBnS4PmJFz

well, the pictures aren't loading, but you should be able to find them on the link to yahoo!photos.

[avball]

Did you ever get this problem resolved? I have similar issues with my WWII Edition Mil-spec (apparently these are now called the "GI Model"?). I've put probably close to 1000 rounds through it and have tried replacing the extractor (with whatever the gunsmith at the range decided to get) and replaced the recoil spring with a Wolff... still doing it, but it seems to do it less frequently. I've ordered a Wilson Bulletproof extractor to see if that takes care of it. Another gun shop guru told me to try just cleaning and lubing the **** out of it, and after adding a bit of lube to it on the spot, it seemed a _little_ better. I just did a throrough cleaning today and am planning to do another range test soon.