Local dealers trashing Charles Daly

[bobbarrios]

I checked the Charles Daly website for local dealers and found two close to home. One said they stopped handling the weapons, 1911 45 ACP, when a batch of ten were all returned with problems. The second just shook his head and snorted about slide failures. I had thought about getting one as an inexpensive shooter. What do you guys think?

[wichaka]

I generally don't keep in touch with the lower end stuff, but have looked at a few at gun shows. They seem okay, just don't expect above average quality.

But they seem like good range guns..........or something to throw in the glove box.

[ArnisAndyz]

Never owned a CD but have heard similar things. While many people praise the RIA/Armscors they trash the CDs. From what I understand, CDs are now made from Armscor components but assembled by CD? If your looking for a low budget 45 I'd go with the RIA.

[thepuppethead]

I think the CD 1911's are assembled, finished, and test fired in the Phillipines. CD appears to be just importing and selling - I don't think they're involved in assembly or finishing at all.

The reason I say this is that each of these handguns (Armscor, CD, RIA) comes with an envelope with a couple of spent test rounds in it, signed by the assembler/tester. The envelope is marked 'Arms Corporation of the Phillipines', and the inspection certificate and make/model information are hand written by the same Armscor employee. Mine, at least, was assembled and test fired before CD ever got their hands on it. The guy who did mine, M. Santos, also did a friend's RIA -- same handwriting and signature.

Unless Armscor is purposefully manufacturing the CD guns to a lower standard than those that are sold as Armscor or RIA, my bet is that they are all equivalent quality-wise. Luck of the draw, most likely.

[bobbarrios]

Thanks for the info guys

[Adjutant]

Hi Bob,

I got the same song and dance from some local dealers as you about a year ago but bought a new one anyway. It was an Enhanced Field Grade for $385. Straight from the box without oiling or cleaning and to the range firing 200 SWC lead reloads she digested them all. Quit at 200 rounds since I ran out of ammo. I’ve never had a Colt do as well. All milspec parts I’ve tried drop right in and I am also amazed at the accuracy even after putting 1,200 rounds through it. I will put it up against any Colt or Kimber in the club and to be honest I would not trade it even for a Kimber.

This is my experience and I can’t speak for others. I wonder if their problems were with the older CDs. In about 2002, CD evidently underwent some reengineering and improved quality control. Their customer service improved as well I understand and is now first rate. Again, this is my experience. Whichever you choose I hope you get as good a service out of it as I have my Charles Daly. If recalled for Iraq this is the gun I intend to take as my companion.

Bill

[bobbarrios]

Thanks for the imput ADJ. Impressive that you would make a CD your sidearm in Iraq. My son is at Bragg attempting to qualify for SF. He may or may not be in the Middle East in 2006. I was going to buy him a Colt 1911 Government model in 45 but he wants me to hold off until he sees if he qualifies for SF or goes over as Airborne Infantry. I would like him to have a 45 as opposed to the 9. If he is not SF can he carry a sidearm, he is E-3 and if he can does he have the right to carry a personal weapon? i've been told that unless you are SF or a civilian contractor you get the Baretta 9 or nothing. Any input is appreciated

Bob

[bobbarrios]

Hey ADJ (Bill)
Forgot to say in the above post.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. Keep your head up, back straight, feet clean and dry (the other vets will know what I mean) and keep that CD clean.

Bob

[Adjutant]

Bob,

I appreciate the thanks but my contribution pales along side that of so many. Still, having considering the treatment we all received during the Viet Nam era it still sounds good to hear it. I do have to say that the abuse from the ignorant during that war was all but non-existent in your part of the country.

The Colt 1911 is a fine choice. With the Colt, nobody can fault it as being inferior or a piece of junk. Mindset is critical in survival and even though the CD is fine for me, I would not recommend it to anyone who held any doubts as to its reliability. Confidence in ones equipment is paramount.

I’m not up to speed on the current TO&E for an infantry company but historically the grunts were only issued rifles. The thought being if they had a pistol they would not keep their rifle clean because they knew they had that pistol to back them up. With only the rifle they knew they had better keep it clean and serviced because that was all that stood between them and eternity. The only soldiers in regular units to be issued pistols were those whose primary duties made carrying a rifle impractical and that was the only weapon they were issued, in other words management and staff.

I applaud your intent to buy him a .45 rather than depend on the 9MM. For anyone who can hit with it the .45 is decidedly superior to the nine. Keep us posted in how/where your boy is doing so we can keep him in prayer.

Take Care,

Bill

[bobbarrios]

Thank you for the kind thoughts. I always tried to instill in him that military service is something to be proud of. I am a vet as are both grandfathers. An uncle and brother in law are active duty. I guess being from the South might have something to do with it. The prayers are apreciated.

Bob

[.22shorty]

Don't sweat what dealers say. I lived on long island until 6 months ago. Except for one dealer Precision Sportsman- owned by Neal- a great guy who just couldn't compete with the big boys but really knows his (crap), They all sucked. Bad attitudes, everything you have is crap everything they have is great..combined with misinformation and ignorance... I don't think i ever really got one good deal in 20 years. (except when edelmans went out of business) Know your stuff and stick to your guns if your right!

[scondido]

(See my recent post re: "CD (Lack of) Quality")

Despite my terrible experience with a recent-vintage, great-condition, used CD 1911, I do not have enough data to adopt a strong overall FOR or AGAINST position on CD - other than I'd never buy another. My fundamental criteria for firearms is that they be safe and reliable - my CD was not.

After this recent negative CD experience, I also started asking around re CD and got very negative responses from most dealers. The dealer who sold me the CD no longer sells or re-sells CD (and given that this dealer sells Llama/Bersa, KelTec, Armscorp, and other less-than-topshelf brands - before a new flaming response, note I did not say poor quality; I own a Bersa and a KelTec (as well as a Colt) and am happy with both).

This dealer mentioned is one of the largest in the Southwest U.S., and has an excellent reputation for customer service and gun knowledge. Many other local dealers refuse to sell CD (although some will sell RIA and Armscorp). I take this as a sign of questionable CD quality and reliability (which dealers expressed) rather than bias against a given manufacturer (CD). (In retrospect, I should have done this CD poll and research before my unfortunate purchase of a CD 1911).

Once one has reduced or eliminated possible negative contributions from ammo, magazines, gun cleanliness and lubrication, shooter technique, etc. (as I did) - you are left with the weapon itself as the most likely culprit.

Don't doubt that there are many "good" CD pistols out there. But as an ex-QA Mgr. in a manufacturing plant, I can tell you that "quality" is not based on SOME items meeting spec., but rather than ALL (particularly YOURS) meeting spec. Similarly, reliability is is not based on functioning as intended SOMETIMES, but rather ALL THE TIME (under std. conditions) - without fail. These are important, sometimes critical criteria for firearms. For military and combat use, quality and reliability are even more essential.

For me, I would not have any of my sons fire or own a CD - most especially in a combat situation (where ammo, weapon cleanliness, etc. are less manageable). Others who have other less negative CD experiences than mine, will advise you differently.

[Adjutant]

Hi Scondido,

I agree with your remarks on quality control. Having worked with OSHA, the EPA, and DOT in the hospital supply industry, I am well aware of the importance of quality control. Unfortunately, that is a more frequent issue than in times past and CD does not have an exclusive franchise on this problem. Kimber, Springfield and even Colt have issues in is this regard as well as others. There are even posts concerning Wilson Combat pistols costing around $2,000 needing to be returned for “tweaking.” The question on the table is, “are the current CDs more problematical than other brands in this regard?” That can not be fairly tested based on a used pistol that who knows what the previous owner did to it?

Regardless, it is regrettable you had a bad experience with a CD even if it was used. That being the case you have adopted the proper course of action, never buy a CD again. If you have no confidence in your weapon you have already lost half the battle should you ever need it for anything serious.

I am a bit confused over your comment, “before a new flaming response.” I reread this post and I did not detect anything resembling a flame. But then I may be using the incorrect definition. If someone takes a position different than mine I don’t consider that a flame. Indeed, that is a big reason why I visit this site. If everyone had the exact experiences as I and felt the same as I on every point where would the learning be? If I have said something in this , or some other, post that you consider a flame because I disagree with you I guarantee you that was not my intention.

Take Care,

Bill

[Deacon Aegis]

Wow, I must be feeling chatty today, I've been jumping in on quite a few threads. I hope you gents don't mind the intrusion. That said, I think there is somethig else that often we, as consumers need to remember. You're going to get what you pay for. For some reason way to many folks get into the budget purchase and expect the limo life. Yes I agree with you all that quality and pride in craftsmanship are typically not something you're going to find much at the entry level and even that lack of that level of individual excellence in one's main career is pervasive today, which is why even the big name companies deal with QC issues. Now I'm not just talking out my bum here, I am a business owner and deal with this issue every day among the people I work with. Excellence is hard to get from a culture that is constantly striving to adhere to lowest common denominator values. Most folks who even these days that are not living a disposable lifestyle and do appreciate perfection are still unwilling to pay for it. That leaves only those few who have a true passion in their art who consistently deliver the remarkable.

We as consumers are equally to blame in this errosion. Companies keep churning out crap and we keep buying it. Now what I'm going to say next may skirt into the realm of insulting some of the satisfied Charles Daily owners here and I am so not meaning it as such, so please forgive me if this sounds wrong, but fact of the matter is Charles Daily Firearms takes inexpensively created firearms and applies the fad de'jour to them so that they keep pace with the economic trends easily identified within the budget arms community. All of the glitz and finish on a CD is pretty much surface deep. Every one of these 1911 guru's hanging around here that have either worked their way up into the elite manufacturers or what have you may keep their mouth shut and enjoy that new folks are coming to be enthusiastic about the 1911 with their RIA purchases and CD purchases and whatever, but look at what they are shooting. If they even own a sub 600 dollar 1911, it is probably their beater gun for the glove box, tackle box, or whatever. Now I'm not saying anyone who doesn't have an expensive 1911 like the older folks are any less of a shooter, a person, or in any way, shape or form denotes or confers any indication of a superiority thing there. I own a RIA and will probably have that little beater for the rest of my life and I guarantee you the memories of the fun I have walking with my friends out in the boondocks and plinking away an afternoon with the RIA will be just as fond as any other. I guess all I'm saying is that if you feel like you need a firearm to defend your life, can't afford the hit any of the more reputable manufacturers of 1911's are going to charge you for their product, then you should probably consider looking into a polymer pistol. Plastic is cheap, is entirely machine molded, which means it can be held to a standard, and requires only more rudimentary skill from a craftsman to bring into spec. Steel is a bit different beast and the quality of a firearm can be noticably different from one gun to the next depending on who was behind the hammer or file that say. Thes artisans need to eat too, so the firearms that are crafted to that level of excellence will cost a premium.

Oh well, that was my two cents worth and not a flame or an argument. I just needed to hear myself talk some. I love my little RIA. I can't wait to get it back from the pistol smith so I can boil it. Mwahahaha

Chiao

[Adjutant]

Hi Deacon,



I don’t take that as a flame. In fact, some of it I agree with. No pun intended but the CD is hard to beat as a beater and though I like the features on the CD and the price, if it were unreliable, I would agree with everything you said. However, my CD is more reliable and accurate than all of the Colts, a Norinco and a Colt 1911 A-1 that I own and that right out of the box. After 1,300 rounds I have a rather good feel of how trustworthy it is. I know it works. My question is, “Why should I pay hundreds of dollars more for a gun because of the name?” The analogy I would use involves an automobile Volkswagen sold a number of years ago called the Beatle. It wasn’t pretty, luxurious nor prestigious but it got you where you wanted to go, used less gas and its maintenance reliability was superior to most cars costing thousands more. It was the vehicle for the person that wanted performance rather than bragging rights. That is how I feel about my CD. Not only do I have more expensive 1911s but I recently decided to trade off one of my guns. Not wanting to sell a gun I had carried on duty it came down to my CD or a Colt 70 Series Gold Cup. I sold the Gold Cup. As you can see I own the more expensive brand name but I still prefer my CD. If I want to impress someone with workmanship I’ll show them one of my Colts. If I want to impress them with performance I’ll take them to the range along with my CD.



Keep the comments coming Deacon. Discussion and opposing points of view help us to grow. I’m not offended that your preference is different from mine. That is your right in a free society. If I may paraphrase Voltaire “I may disagree with what you say but I will defend with my life your right to say it.”



All the Best,



Bill

[Deacon Aegis]

Oh I agree, there are always exceptions to the rule. Most of the RIA owners seem to be quite fond of their RIA's and the one I ended up with was a total piece of trash. Fortunately I was looking for a 1911-based handgun that I could "play" with without cutting up a more expensive gun. For me, it turned out to be the perfect tool to get into a whole new level of shooting and firearm craftsmanship. A firearm , at is most base consideration, is like a screw driver. It is a tool. If the purpose of that tool is to drill very small holes and simply widen them out as the match progresses, the tool is going to have a very different set of requirements demanded upon it. If the tool is being depended upon to go bang everyt single time, always, without fail, then that tool meets different demands in different ways. Neither is neccisarrily right or wrong, they both serve the purpose of their function. Very few even fairly active shooters need to cut the hole larger and are playing for keeps on tenths and hundreths of an imch like those guys running around in their supped up Infinities and cutting less than a minute degree of angle on 50 yards.

There are just so many different types of folk who all have different reasons for their particular tastes and talents it is impossible to lump them all into such easy shades of the spectrum. Me, I love the heck out of shooting and continually trying to improve my accuracy. I'd love to be one of those guys who can drill a hole at 25 yards with 50 rounds without a drift, but honestly I'm more enthusiatic right now about the art and science of the pistol smith's craft. To be practical, I'll never have the skill of guys like this Ken Crawley I met recently, but learning is extremely fulfilling and if I ever do craft a firearm that someone else ends up prizing, then I've managed to achieve something truly incredible on a personal level.

Anyway, I'm so off in rambling thought now. Hehe. I've really been enjoying working on these things and talking with the folks that it has exposed me to. I am looking forward to getting my RIA back from Ken Crawley and getting back to work on it so that I can get it done and post the pictures of one heck of a spiffy RIA. Lord knows, I could have bought two Kimbers for everything I've invested in to make this RIA what it will be when it is done. The whole point though for me has been the experience and knowledge along the way. Will the RIA shoot as well as the Kimber? I wouldn't know. My skill is still fairly far from being able to define any real improvement between the groups I shoot with one or the other. To me though, there would be very little store-bought hardware that would have as much meaning to me.

The light is Aun. :.

:) I've definately been enjoying the conversation. Good folks here on M1911.org and the bug I've caught is probably not going to go away any time soon. :)

[bobbarrios]

I started this thread about Charles Daly 45's. The discussion has been invaluable to me in trying to make a decision about my first 1911 45. (I carried a Colt 45 in the Army and own a Colt 1911 9 mm). Thanks to all who have posted on the subject.

Bob

[Deacon Aegis]

Hehe Bobbarrios, sorry for taking it down the rambling path I took it. Whatever your choice turns out to be, I hope that you are satisfied with your decision and your 1911 .45 is an enjoyable shooter for you. :)

[AnimalKracker]

But Deacon, you know you're going to love that scuffy, mongrol of a pistol when you finish it. ;)

[Deacon Aegis]

LOL AnimalKracker, you got me figured out. Fortunately, since Ken Crawley found the design concept I wanted to see happen on it interesting (as well as getting a little more business from another buddy of mine), he cut me a huge break on the work that is getting done on this beast. I am absolutely counting the days and unfortunately it will be probably sometime late February before it comes back to my meager little shop here.

I'm giddy just thinking about what this gun is going to look like when I get it back. I've got tons more work to do on it after it lands here, but by the time it is said and done with, I'll be proud to display my Uber-customized RIA beside any Les Baer, Kimber, or Rock River. It may have humble origins and certainly won't be the engineer's superior to those other fine 1911's, but I bet it shoots dang near as well, and turns more heads at the range than any Thunder Ranch Commemerative. Mwahahaha... peeps are going to be saying, "you insane *#$%er" You did all that to a RIA?! LOL

Yeah, she'll be a right beaut and a class act and no other 1911 on the face of this planet has ever had the design implimentations that this RIA has. Les Baer has something close in their Monolith framed series, but they fall short on one key design difference from mine. Mwahaha. I can't wait to get it done and post pics. :D

(Do I sound excited enough? Hehe You're right, the RIA will always have a special place in my heart)

[AnimalKracker]

I started this thread about Charles Daly 45's. The discussion has been invaluable to me in trying to make a decision about my first 1911 45. (I carried a Colt 45 in the Army and own a Colt 1911 9 mm). Thanks to all who have posted on the subject.

Bob
It aint a Cadillaic and it aint a Rolls, BUT, lots of people take them and shoot the heck out of them.

[AnimalKracker]

Deacon ,just start paying your dues in the Cheap Pistols & Gun Snobs Club. LOL ;)

[Deacon Aegis]

LOL ain't that the truth. I kinda feel like I'm packing a Rolls Royce hood on a VW here, but that thar grill is solid gold... Hehe (I'm suddenly having visions of Rodney Dangerfield driving his Rolls out onto the golf course in Caddyshack.)

:D The banter may suggest it's a bling bling bang bang, but that's not where I went with it (although now I think I need to see if I can design the ultimate 1911 bling bling gun just to agitate the uptights... ROFL)

Anyway man, you are absolutely right though, this little RIA range gun of mine will be a proud little addition to my collection and will probably get more time on target than many of the others. It may not have the heritage, but it will proudly display its RIA name and deliver where it needs to deliver. Dang I'm getting wildly impatient. I want to put my money where my mouth is and show this thing off. Ah well, all good wines in there accordant time. ;)

[AnimalKracker]

I've owned several pretty expensive pedigreed dogs in my life, but some of the ones closest to my heart were mutts.

[Deacon Aegis]

Aye, AnimalKracker, I'd have to agree. Already, I've created first-time experiences thanks to this RIA. I've met an amazing pistol smith and incredibly interesting individual in his own right, thanks to that RIA, learned more about shooting and firearms in general than ever before and I wasn't exactly a newb when I jumped ship, and fact is, none of those fine experiences, knowledge, or interests would have developed if it wasn't for my mutt. You're right sir, gotta love them. :D

[AnimalKracker]

Deacon, we need to gold-inlay the lettering on our slides, 24k gold lettering that costs more than the pistols. Now is that over the top or what? ;)

[Deacon Aegis]

Hehe that'll definately push it up there into pimp-land, no doubt. ;) Hmmm, I wonder if I can find fuzzy white tiger striped grips anywhere.... LOL :D

[gqucool1911]

Whats funny at least from what i have seen the fancier Armscor 1911's look just like the Charles Daly 1911's yet there seems to be alot of negative response to the Charles Daly line of 1911's so is this because of the quality and time spent on assembly of the guns especially if the guns are made by the same manufacturer? Well with that said only 2 shooting sesssion with my new CD, I had nothing but problems with it right now it is at the factory getting repaired! I can say right now that Charles Daly has treated me very nice, so I hope I will get the same results when I get my gun back in that it will shoot properly!!

[Hawkmoon]

Whats funny at least from what i have seen the fancier Armscor 1911's look just like the Charles Daly 1911's yet there seems to be alot of negative response to the Charles Daly line of 1911's so is this because of the quality and time spent on assembly of the guns especially if the guns are made by the same manufacturer? Well with that said only 2 shooting sesssion with my new CD, I had nothing but problems with it right now it is at the factory getting repaired! I can say right now that Charles Daly has treated me very nice, so I hope I will get the same results when I get my gun back in that it will shoot properly!!
It is my impression that much of the negative feedback on the Charles Daly pistols has been poor customer/warranty service as opposed to abnormal problems with the pistols themselves. More recent reports suggest that CD is perhaps cleaning up their act in the customer service department, so I hope you get your pistol back promptly and fully functional. Please be sure to let us know.

[AnimalKracker]

I'm not sure, but I think I read some where C D/RIA where build at the same place. Ah, but could it be that they are comeing off a differant production line , and made under a differant contract. Just something to think about. But I'm starting to see good reviews in gun rags now. My uncle said that he saw a good review on T V. (sports channel, outdoor world,???) So maybe they got the word like Taurus did several yrs back, if it's junk I don't want it even at a cheap price.

[Adjutant]

I would not be surprised to learn our comments on this forum are monitored by 1911 manufacturers and have a significant influence on the improvement experienced.

Bill

[AnimalKracker]

I would not be surprised to learn our comments on this forum are monitored by 1911 manufacturers and have a significant influence on the improvement experienced.

Bill
If, they are smart they check out this site. (and others) I've been on several sites where some one zinged their product, right away got a come back about how they worked for so and so and what was being done about the situation. But try this, google a question about a 1911 -- bet you get a list with threads from this board. So I have to believe that the manufacturers are aware of us here.