Broke a Norinco

[EuroMan]

I finally had a breakage that is going to get in my pocket.

A friend and I both have Norinco 1911A1's. Both shoot better than any of my other 5 1911's. Both get between 400-600rds/month fired through them for the last year. I have had a link and a slide release pin break on my gun. Replaced with Wilson Combat parts and continued shooting.

My partners gun locked up on our last outing. I had to beat the slide open. One of the barrel lug feet (hooks?)had broken off and dropped behind the other foot preventing barrel lock down. I bent the other foot beating the slide open. I can see no sign of binding or wear in the frame

What is the primary cause of this type of breakage?
What are my options for rebarreling ($$ is real tight)?
Are there other aspects I need to look at besides the barrel/frame fit?

Any of you guys have a good Norinco pull-off barrel cheap?

Thanks, John

[1911Tuner]

I finally had a breakage that is going to get in my pocket.

A friend and I both have Norinco 1911A1's. Both shoot better than any of my other 5 1911's. Both get between 400-600rds/month fired through them for the last year. I have had a link and a slide release pin break on my gun. Replaced with Wilson Combat parts and continued shooting.

My partners gun locked up on our last outing. I had to beat the slide open. One of the barrel lug feet (hooks?)had broken off and dropped behind the other foot preventing barrel lock down. I bent the other foot beating the slide open. I can see no sign of binding or wear in the frame

What is the primary cause of this type of breakage?
What are my options for rebarreling ($$ is real tight)?
Are there other aspects I need to look at besides the barrel/frame fit?

Any of you guys have a good Norinco pull-off barrel cheap?

Thanks, John

Hi John,

Your broken link and slidestop pin were probably due to the vertical barrel impact surface in the frame being located too far rearward, or the rear of the barrel lower lug located too far forward...and the barrel was being stopped by the link and pin in extension. The link may have stretched before it broke, but
also possible that it didn't. Unless I miss my guess, the hole that mounts the link onto the barrel is probably a little loose too. If the condition still exists,
it'll happen again. Most Norinco frames are well within spec, and the problem was very likely with the barrel lug location. You can check it like so:

Long-linking the barrel in order to get better vertical lockup can also bring on this type of failure.

Remove the slidestop part-way and allow the arm to hang vertically with the pin through the frame and link. Lock the slide to the rear and push the barrel down and back...and hold it there firmly. Push the slidestop arm to see if it will swing freely or gets into a tight bind. if it binds, the link is being stretched, and you'll probably have a repeat on the failure...or at the very least, the link will stretch until the rear of the lug is stopped by the vertical impact surface. The problem there is in getting the barrel lugs completely free of the slide's lugs and slots before the slide whacks the corners of the locking lugs. Simply stated...it's a barrel timing issue. if the barrel doesn't unlock and drop at the right time, you'll have something similar to your friend's
failure described in the next part.

Broken lower lug foot and/or sheared lower lug is usually...but not always due to the vertical impact surface being located too far FORWARD or the lower lug located too far REARWARD...or the exact opposite of the issue that caused your failures. In this one, the barrel strikes the vertical impact surface while being partially engaged to the slide, and the crash damages the upper and lower lugs, with catastrophic failure probably occurring within 2,000 rounds.

Also possible that the vertical impact surface is angled slightly, with the bottom area sitting forward of the top. The lower lug feet hit the impact wall instead of correctly striking it near the top, just below the junction of lower lug and barrel. The fix for this is to have a circular relief machined into the lower part of the impact surface about .010-.012 inch deep so that the lower lug will strike it closer to the top. Problems that may arise with this repair is in throwing the barrel timing into the same type of circumstance that broke your link and slidestop pin...but this isn't highly likely. Also possible that a
good barrel that's in-spec will cure both issues.

Norincos are very good pistols on average, but the do tend to lean toward
crapshoot territory on their barrel fit in most examples. A few ae completely out of spec, and the only cure is a new fitted barrel or even frame alteration to bring things into acceptable working condition.

Check your PMs.

[EuroMan]

Thanks 1911Tuner,
The link in my gun showed no signs of stretch but broke the bottom eye out. The pin hole was over size on both ends. Pin is still tight press fit in lug. I dimensioned it out and came up with the .266" c to c. I replaced with a .268" Wilson and checked fit. Real tight on slide release pin at link down pushing back on barrel as you describe. Worked up to the .278" (#3) and fit was good at link down and lock up with no binding and lock lugs cleared slide ok. That is how I've been shooting it for the last 1500 + or - rds.

On the Nork with the broken foot. I just looked at the frame under good light and there is an even pattern of the barrel lug that has worn away the blue from the vertical impact surface, but only at the tops of the machine marks. Imprint is even top to bottom, side to side but, I think you are correct that the feet were bearing harder than the top of the lug. The relief cut you refer to at the bottom of the vertical impact surface is in order. The barrel lock lugs and the slide lug recesses show no sign of battering or rounding. They appear as new.

I will follow through Kuhnhausens manuals as I start fitting it back together.

PM sent also,
John

[1911Tuner]

The link breaking in the bottom hole along with the binding with the .268 link indicate stretch before the break. That's where they stretch...in the thin cross-section of the hole.

Having to use a link that was .012 inch longer to relieve the binding is also a red flag. Is the longer link causing the barrel to pivot up and lock on the link? Is the unlock timing good with the longer link? Barrel fully down at .250 inch of slide travel? Starting to unlock at .120 inch of slide travel...maximum?
.100 inch is about ideal in a service grade pistol.

There may have been a reason for that short link. If all is in-spec, a short link
generally won't unlock the barrel. If yours unlocked with a .266 link, it indicates that something was out of spec...along with the hard bind on the slidestop pin when the barrel was pushed down and back suggests that several things were.

A quick-check for a too-short link is to flip the pistol upside down and hand-cycle it. If the slide catches at about a quarter-inch of travel...even a little...the barrel isn't unlocking. A too-long link delays the start of the unlock timing and barrel drop, and can also cause the barrel to fail to unlock completely. Long links can also advance barrel rise into the slide and create interference at the locking lug corners.

Dinkin' around with different link centers can lead to some serious problems,
and almost never helps with accuracy. Usually just the opposite, and when the barrel rides the link and locks on it tightly, puts stresses on the link, link pin, and slidestop crosspin that they weren't intended to bear.

[EuroMan]

"The link breaking in the bottom hole along with the binding with the .268 link indicate stretch before the break. That's where they stretch...in the thin cross-section of the hole."

This to me indicates that the original link was in fact to short. If I replace with a .268" link won't I just get repeat failures ?

[COLOR=Blue]"Having to use a link that was .012 inch longer to relieve the binding is also a red flag. Is the longer link causing the barrel to pivot up and lock on the link?"

As the barrel bottom lug was originally cut for the .268" link then it does ride the .278" link on lock-up. From what I can gather from Kuhnhausens manuals ideally the lug should ride the pin and make lock-up for best accuracy. But the original military specs rode the link giving up a bit of accuracy for function and part interchangability. Is this correct?

Is the unlock timing good with the longer link? Barrel fully down at .250 inch of slide travel? Starting to unlock at .120 inch of slide travel...maximum?
.100 inch is about ideal in a service grade pistol.

Approx. .116-.118" is where I am seeing start of unlock and barrel is at link down and barrel is fully down by .250". Although at link down I only have approx. .005" clearance between hood and slide.

"There may have been a reason for that short link. If all is in-spec, a short link
generally won't unlock the barrel. If yours unlocked with a .266 link, it indicates that something was out of spec...along with the hard bind on the slidestop pin when the barrel was pushed down and back suggests that several things were."

I think the item out of spec was the original link. Both pin holes were terribly oversize letting the link act short at lock-up, long at link down and a lot of slop in travel. The continued slamming from end to end of the slack caused the link to stretch/break. When fitting the new link the .278" (#3, standard) was the one that seems to be best.

A quick-check for a too-short link is to flip the pistol upside down and hand-cycle it. If the slide catches at about a quarter-inch of travel...even a little...the barrel isn't unlocking. A too-long link delays the start of the unlock timing and barrel drop, and can also cause the barrel to fail to unlock completely. Long links can also advance barrel rise into the slide and create interference at the locking lug corners.

This all checks out ok so far.

Dinkin' around with different link centers can lead to some serious problems,
and almost never helps with accuracy. Usually just the opposite, and when the barrel rides the link and locks on it tightly, puts stresses on the link, link pin, and slidestop crosspin that they weren't intended to bear.

Although the barrel rides the link on lock-up it is not causing the barrel to bind against the slide nor the barrel bushing. I was worried about lost accuracy as this gun was shooting 1-1/2", 15yd groups offhand with my reloads (4.6gr Bullseye w/200gr LSWC) before the link breakage. Accuracy remains.

I have been shooting 1911 type guns for 15yrs but only since my move to FL last year did I start shooting the quantity through my handguns I am now. I now have six 1911A1's and still looking. I am a rifle shooter by heart but there are no rifle ranges here.

You have been a great help.
Thanks once again & Good Shoot'n,
John

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner

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>>This to me indicates that the original link was in fact to short. If I replace with a .268" link won't I just get repeat failures ?<<

Yep. .002 inch won't help a whole lot unless the .266 link was only about .002 or .003 inch too short.
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>>As the barrel bottom lug was originally cut for the .268" link then it does ride the .278" link on lock-up. From what I can gather from Kuhnhausens manuals ideally the lug should ride the pin and make lock-up for best accuracy. But the original military specs rode the link giving up a bit of accuracy for function and part interchangability. Is this correct?<<

Ordnance-spec pistols often rode the link as the barrel cammed up, but usually didn't stand on the link more than about .003 inch in full battery.
You'll usually see that condition in pistols that have had the barrels replaced
without having the barrel correctly selective-fit by the armorer. Barrels that lock on the link .012 inch were likely replaced by a parts gun builder so he could sell it at the next gun show as an original USGI pistol...and very likely with a questionable or government contract rejected barrel. You'll also see
hard locking on the link in many of the Colts built during the Series 70 dark days.
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>>Approx. .116-.118" is where I am seeing start of unlock and barrel is at link down and barrel is fully down by .250". Although at link down I only have approx. .005" clearance between hood and slide.<<

That's a bit late for the start of unlocking, but workable as long as the barrel drops fast once it unlocks. .005 inch clearance is a little too close for my comfort zone, but lso workable if the drop timing is good...but still should be
about twice that amount as a minimum. Don't let the frame bridge and bottom of the barrel chamber go too long between cleanings. That clearance can be opened up a little without damaging anything or reducing the slide lug depth. Tricky though...Not recommended without seeing it done first.
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>>I think the item out of spec was the original link. Both pin holes were terribly oversize letting the link act short at lock-up, long at link down and a lot of slop in travel. The continued slamming from end to end of the slack caused the link to stretch/break. When fitting the new link the .278" (#3, standard) was the one that seems to be best.<<

Sounds like somebody was aware of the problems associated with the short link. Possible that they broke or lost the original and the short one was all they had in a pinch...discovered that the gun wouldn't function, and started wallowing the holes out to make it work. Likely thinned out the large hole so much that it weakened it to the point of no return...and it broke when you shot the gun enough. It was just long enough to let the barrel unlock, but not long enough to let it stop on the impact surface. When it stretched just a little...snap!
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Although the barrel rides the link on lock-up it is not causing the barrel to bind against the slide nor the barrel bushing.

A quick-check for early lockup timing is to point the gun straight down and slowly hand-cycle it with the recoil system removed...guide rod and all...with bushing in place. If the slide binds even a little just as the barrel rises into the slide, the front lug corners are contacting the rear lug corners in the slide. This hitch in the getalong probably won't be apparent when briskly cycling the slide or when firing, or when hand-cycling the gun held in the normal firing position unless it's pretty bad. You may see evidence on the front corners of the barrel lugs having a light bevel. This is actually a fairly common problem in...surprisingly...factory Colts of recent vintage. Often, a failure to go to battery during live-fire is attributed to this timing problem instead of the normal extractor tension/stem bind/rough or undesized breechface issues that are usually to blame.