grip safety drags on trigger bow

[pyro]

After noon gents,

Two X-mas past, I recieved as gift from wife an Essex stainless frame, and Kuhnhausen's volume I. I then aquired a Brazilian slide from Sarco. It ook a lot of work to make it pretty, leared to Parkerize and so on. Then added a cheapo Sarco parts kit. To my suprise, it ran and functioned flawlessly. Since then I replaced all those cheapo parts with good quality "Bullet Proof" (and others) parts from Brownells. The last thing I did was add Dlansk trigger and bow.

I don't remember whose beavertail safety I fitted, but when I went to the Dlansk trigger, things got dicey with the grip safety. It still workes ok, but even after carefully working on the saftey "arm", where it stops the bows rearward motion, it will (or at least can, at times) capture the trigger. I guess it's not really much of a problem, as you almost have to "try" to make it happen for it to happen. What I mean is, if you realease the grip safety with the trigger depressed, the trigger stopps in it's return path to ready to fire. Then if you depress the grip safety, the trigger will release and jump forward that last 1/16 inch.

This is my first 1911, so I don't even know if this is abnormal, but I believe it probably is.

If I were to file any more off the bottom of the grip safety arm, the grip safety will become non-functional entirely as it is already very sensitive, so I can't think where to go from here. I've read in several different places that the Dlansk triggers can be difficult to fit, so maybe my best option is to buy another trigger and start over? I'm pretty sure if I choose that option, I'll be needing another grip safety too, is that right? Hmm, come to think of it, probably new thumb safety as well?

Any advice or tips greatly appreciated!!
Thanks in advance,
Pyro

[Hawkmoon]

I think I would begin by carefully examining the arm of the grip safety, and the trigger bow, for roughness. If something is hanging up, it would appear that a bit of judicious polishing with fine emery cloth (not really removing "material," just cleaning up and smoothing the surfaces) might have a salutory effect.

[pyro]

I think I would begin by carefully examining the arm of the grip safety, and the trigger bow, for roughness. If something is hanging up, it would appear that a bit of judicious polishing with fine emery cloth (not really removing "material," just cleaning up and smoothing the surfaces) might have a salutory effect.

Thanks Hawkmoon. Yes, that's the first thing I tried. Emery, then Flitz. Smoother than a babies behind. What this did was make it very easy to drag the trigger back out to it's furthermost forward position without depressing the grip safety.

I think somethings out of spec. With the old GI steel trigger, everything was fine. When I went to the Dlansk, I had to radically modify the nose of the grip safety arm.

thanks again.
Pyro

[Unclenick]

Pyro,

If I read correctly, you are concerned about trigger bow drag only when you release the grip safety before releasing the trigger. Mentally, I've gone through holstering and unholstering and picking the gun up and setting it down. If you follow Cooper's Rule 3, and never put (or leave) your finger inside the trigger guard unless your gun is pointing toward a target, it never happens that the grip is released before the trigger.

This is an excellent safety rule and I recommend it to you. Just get in the habit that any time you are holding the gun but are not pointing at or coming up to point at a target, you be sure you consciously feel the slide stop under your index finger. If you are right-handed and using a standard slide stop, this will feel like a little rounded button. Otherwise it will be the hub of the lever. At Gunsite they proved to us you can always get your finger inside the trigger guard faster than you can raise the gun, so it doesn't impede your speed at all.

As to what's happening: the 3 finger spring leaf that acts to pop the grip safety out is pushing the safety arm down on the trigger bow when you let go of it. It should. This is normal return pressure. You can polish the underside of the arm and the top edge of the trigger bow as Hawkmoon suggests. That will reduce friction between them. I would follow the emery paper with crocus cloth and get a near mirror finish. Removing more arm material won't accomplish anything until the safety stops working altogether.

The other factor I suspect is that the leaf spring tensioning is incorrectly balanced.
You can bend a little forward on the right (from the shooter's position) or finger of the three-fingered flat spring anchored under the mainspring housing. The right finger is the one that pops the grip safety out, and bending it forward will reduce the force with which the saftey pops back out, and simultaneously that with which its arm bears down on the trigger bow.

You can also try increasing the middle finger tension a little by bending it slightly forward. This will increase trigger return pressure, and because this is take-up pressure for the first stage of the trigger press, you won't likely find the increase makes the trigger release weight feel appreciably heavier.

If you do find it too heavy, you can decrease the left finger tension a little to compensate. However, if you are going to lighten any finger on the leaf spring, you should first unload, lock the slide back, hold the gun muzzle up with the grips pinched between your thumb and index fingers so the grip is quite flimsy. Then release the slide stop with your other hand. The hammer should not drop on the firing pin when the slide slams forward. If it does, you have lightened the springs too much or have too shallow a cut on the hammer hooks, or have excessively angled the sear trying for light trigger weight.

The bottom line is that what you describe is normal other than the degree of drag.

Nick

[Unclenick]

Also: Have you sized the trigger stirrup correctly? Many match triggers have oversize stirrups and have to be filed down to fit the trigger channel.

Nick

[pyro]

Thank you for saftey tips Unclenick. It's just that I was supposing that the trigger was supposed to reset even under those circumstances.

Especialy thanks for the suggestions with the spring. I have taken you advice with success. The trigger now resets.

The spring is a quite new "bullet proof". Who is that? Wilson I think, don't remeber it's been over a year since I purchased it. I remember that as it came, the right most finger, the one that gives tension on the gripsafety, needed to be bent out for the grip safety to have any springyness to it. I apparently bent it out too far. I had left the others alone, as I'm quite new to this 1911 world, in spite of the fact that I built it myself.

So I took the right one in a bit, and middle one as well. Trigger now resets. On dryfireing, I do believe that this has increase release weght a touch. Too soon to tell. Must get to range. But it's nice to have that problem solved. (at least I THINK it's solved, need to shoot!) Thanks again.

UPS tracking tells me the Nowlin barrel will be here tomarrow. Once that's installed (wish me luck!) I do believe I'm done with this build!

I was warned when I started that this would be addictive. Tis true indeed. Got my eye on a Caspian. Hmmm. Christmas is coming. I wonder-------

Be well
Pyro

[Hawkmoon]

Thanks Hawkmoon. Yes, that's the first thing I tried. Emery, then Flitz. Smoother than a babies behind. What this did was make it very easy to drag the trigger back out to it's furthermost forward position without depressing the grip safety.

I think somethings out of spec. With the old GI steel trigger, everything was fine. When I went to the Dlansk, I had to radically modify the nose of the grip safety arm.

thanks again.
Pyro
I wonder if perhaps you didn't fit the trigger itself to the frame. Not the bow -- the trigger. Every trigger I have installed (all two of them :) ) I had to file/sand down the top and the bottom surfaces until the trigger slides easily in the frame.

It may be that the slight downward pressure the grip safety applies to the top of the trigger bow is cocking the trigger face just enough to cause dragging in the frame. Try polishing the top and bottom flat surfaces of the trigger some more, then oil liberally and see if that changes anything.

Also, try removing everything from the frame. Stick the trigger in, then tip the frame 90 degrees to a "muzzle up" orientation. I think I recall Tuner saying that the trigger should fall out of its own weight. If it doesn't, perhaps the trigger bow is spread too wide for the frame.

[pyro]

All internals are highly polished and fitted with great attention to detail, that is, to best of my amateurish abilities. Much to learn, I make no pretense.

Problem "appears" to be fixed.

It will be a while before I can get to the range. Will be sure to post results.

thanx again,

pyro

PS. Anone with futher comments about trigger shoe dragging on grip safety, please chime in!!

[Unclenick]

Hawkmoon,

Yeah. Actually, that's what I said. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. It's probably just a sign of how old the 1911 is that we seem to have at least two names for every part, so it even gets hard for us old-timers to follow: barrel hood/barrel extension; link lugs/barrel feet; grip escutcheon/grip bushing (say “grip escutcheon” 10 times real fast); firing pin tunnel/hole/drilling/channel, take your pick; dust cover/frame extension; slide stop/assembly pin/post/lever; etcetera. I should probably put in to start a poll on how many names people have heard for each part? Create a kind of cross-reference and attach it to an exploded view.

Anyway, I thought I would put this reply up, not to pick nits, but just because Pyro is a novice and is likely already deep into exposure to some of this confusion and in need of the references. In the case of the trigger, even though the bow resembles the stirrup on a saddle, it is only the bow (one of the few parts I don't know another name for). Just as the saddle's stirrup is where you put your foot, the trigger's stirrup is where you put your finger. So we get to add: trigger stirrup/trigger body, to my list above. Wheee.

Pyro,

I will add, for your future fitting activities, that it is not uncommon to take a loose trigger stirrup and use a punch to upset its edges enough to be filed to fit the trigger channel.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6893/matchtrigger0ez.jpg

Nick

[mitchjoe]

pyro:

Here's my less than two-cents :D. The most common place on a grip safety that requires fitting is the shallow ^ at the tip of the arm. As long as you take it slow & easy (a few swipes at a time), it's typically fairly straight-forward. Some grip safeties however, will also require varying amounts of material be removed from the underside of the arm ("thinning" it I suppose). I recently used such a part from Enterprise Arms that was "thick" enough to trap the trigger w/ the grip safety depressed!

Triggers will flat-out vary as well & even most of the "drop-in's" will require fitting of more than one area. I don't like holes or serrations in or on a trigger, so I've come to love & appreciate Colt's nylon triggers...light, comfy & never had to do more than breathe on one. :D

BTW: Where are the pic's of said project???

mitchjoe

[pyro]

Thanks mate,

Ya want a picture? Ok I'll try. It's just a noobs Essex. no big deal. Sure learned a lot though. It was great fun. I was proud that it worked at all!! My expectations were not that high. Next time I'll do better. It has since this photo obtained some skateboard tape on the front strap. If I get me a Caspian for Chrismas, I'll practice my first checkering job on this stainless Essex.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a236/pyromanic/1911IMG1290.jpghttp://i12.photobuckertcom/albums/a236/pyromanic/1911IMG1290.jpg
I spent all evening working on fitting the new barrel. Now that's an education!! It's finially going into battery, but needs more work on the lower lugs. Been filing on the couch in front of the TV. I've been shooting the Roto piece of crap that came with the kit from Sarco for the last two years. Funny thing about the Roto barrel, it almost dropped right in, and was considerably accurate! But my research tells me it wont wear well. So I bought a Nowlin "drop in". "Drop in" my butt! I expected the hood to need considerable trimming, but the lower lugs are taking lots of work. I'm beginning to understand the how the lower lugs and slide stop pin work. It was rather a mystery untill now. I think if I pull this off with this barrel, I'll try a Kart EZ fit on my next.

Hope this pic works. Again, thanks for your help gents, much appreciated.



pyro:

Here's my less than two-cents :D. The most common place on a grip safety that requires fitting is the shallow ^ at the tip of the arm. As long as you take it slow & easy (a few swipes at a time), it's typically fairly straight-forward. Some grip safeties however, will also require varying amounts of material be removed from the underside of the arm ("thinning" it I suppose). I recently used such a part from Enterprise Arms that was "thick" enough to trap the trigger w/ the grip safety depressed!

Triggers will flat-out vary as well & even most of the "drop-in's" will require fitting of more than one area. I don't like holes or serrations in or on a trigger, so I've come to love & appreciate Colt's nylon triggers...light, comfy & never had to do more than breathe on one. :D

BTW: Where are the pic's of said project???

mitchjoe

[mitchjoe]

pyro:

Hey, that pistol looks good & you've got a right to be proud! Interesting comments on the Roto barrel; most of the complaints I've heard stem from the lack of accuracy, I never really thought about longevity. I'd like to find somebody who had upwards of 10-20K through one & see how it's going.

How well did the Sarco slide fit the Essex frame? Did you have to lap them?

mitchjoe

[Unclenick]

Pyro,

Did you buy a lug cutter from Brownells, or are you filing and scraping? I did my first gun entirely with a scraper and some high spot blue. With the link and slidestop installed, but no slide, operate the barrel forward and back and watch out that the backs of the link lugs don't smack into the impact face in the reciever before the barrel moves all the way down in the cradle (with the link installed). Ideally they should contact simultaneously, and with some scraping you can make that happen. You won't know until you've got the link lug cutting finished so you can find what size link you have to put in? With the barrel all the way back in counter battery, make sure it can't rock in the cradle.

The Kart E-Z fit is a clever idea and gets you out of lug cutting since they give you the right size link with it. Barrel Extention (hood) and the back face of the link lugs should still need fitting. I've never put one in—just looked at in the Champion's Choice store on Commercial Row at Camp Perry. Fred Kart is not a believer in long throating, so it will be fine for jacketed ammo, but you may find you want to get a throating reamer for one of his if you want to shoot lead. Since I own a lug cutter, I have used Fred's standard barrel and like it. I make and heat treat my own links from scratch to ensure correct fit. So far, so good, but a lot of extra bother.

I think the Nowlin drop-ins mainly feature a pre-cut chamber and a pre-fitted bushing, if I remember correctly? Otherwise Nowlin issues a short chamber and you need a special finishing reamer from Dave Manson to set the headspace after fitting the hood. You may be more current on this than I am.

Nick

[pyro]

Guys, Ive been rude to let this go these days after your generous help, and I apologize. It has to do with a fire this past August which took the roof off my shop, and waiting for an electriction these past two months. The waiting is what freed up enough time to get back to this pistol passion of mine for a spell. Well, He called and will be here tomarrow, so FINALLY back to work for me. (on the shop, not the pistol)

I made good progress with the Nowlin barrel, however I'm having a hood clearence problem with link down. I've spent many hours researching, reading here and elsewhere, and still don't see the remedy. I had to iron and smoothe the top slide lugs, and that helped some. Hood to breechface is good I think. Unfortunately, I may have jumped before I understood as much as I needed too, and may have taken too much off the front lower lugs. Darn.

I've shaved the top of the hood, remove a hair from the bottom barrel radius. It locks in battery nice and tight now, but barrel just does not give enough clearence when it drops. It's gonna flange the upper lugs again, I just know it.

I'm nervous about taking any off the frame barrel bed. Will study Sheumans site and other stuff more and again before I proceed, though there wont be much time for the pistol passion for a spell I fear.

Again, thank you all, and be well
Pyro

[Unclenick]

It's not uncommon, when you cut barrel link lugs to fit, that it raises the barrel enough above the assembly pin that the correct length link for lockup is now too long for correct counterbattery fit. That is, the barrel link pin is now far enough from the slide stop pin that the back of the link lugs in the barrel bump into the frame before the barrel is all the way down in its cradle in the frame. This keeps the barrel up too high to let the locking lugs disengage.

To test for this condition, remove the slide and put the barrel in place on the frame and put the slide stop pin into the link. Lay a strip of paper about an eighth of an inch wide across the frame just behind the barrel link channel in the frame. Pull the barrel all the way to the rear and push it firmly down with your thumb over the hood. It should contact the cradle in the frame solidly from the feed ramp to the link channel, and not rock when you push down on the muzzle. You should not be able to pull the slip of paper out.

If the paper comes out, your link lugs are hitting the back of the link channel (also called the impact face) before the barrel is all the way down. The cure is to file the backs of the link lugs a little at a time until, with the barrel pushed all the way back (tensioning the link) they just kiss the impact face at the same time the barrel's chamber exterior evenly comes to rest in the cradle.

It is by far easiest to buy a tube of high spot blue to apply to the cradle and impact face with a Q-tip, then check your filing by watching where the barrel picks the blue up in the test. Scrape the lugs where you see blue until the blue from the cradle marks along the chamber exterior and the impact face marks the backs of the link lugs simultaneously.

At this point you have to check that the bottom of the chamber doesn't overhang the feed ramp, and be prepared to contour it forward 1/32" beyond the top end of the feed ramp if it does.

Nick

[pyro]

Thanks Nick.

Ok, I tried that test. And it confirmed what I was thought I was "seeing". Barrel is dropping onto frame bed with full contact. Rear of lower lugs appear to be hitting vertical impact surface at same time.

I don't know why it won't drop enough to clear the upper lugs.

However I have a theory, which is yet untested. The slide to frame fit was pretty loose with the Roto barrel from Sarco. Now with the Nowlin, it's still loose in back when in lock up, but much tighter in front. Am I onto something?

I put it together without the link, and it drops just fine. Plenty of clearence. I don't believe it's standing on the link.

I'm afraid to lower the flat on the bottom lug much, as I want to keep plenty of upper lug engagemnt. Am I thinking about this properly?



Thanks again for your reply
Pyro

It's not uncommon, when you cut barrel link lugs to fit, that it raises the barrel enough above the assembly pin that the correct length link for lockup is now too long for correct counterbattery fit. That is, the barrel link pin is now far enough from the slide stop pin that the back of the link lugs in the barrel bump into the frame before the barrel is all the way down in its cradle in the frame. This keeps the barrel up too high to let the locking lugs disengage.

To test for this condition, remove the slide and put the barrel in place on the frame and put the slide stop pin into the link. Lay a strip of paper about an eighth of an inch wide across the frame just behind the barrel link channel in the frame. Pull the barrel all the way to the rear and push it firmly down with your thumb over the hood. It should contact the cradle in the frame solidly from the feed ramp to the link channel, and not rock when you push down on the muzzle. You should not be able to pull the slip of paper out.

If the paper comes out, your link lugs are hitting the back of the link channel (also called the impact face) before the barrel is all the way down. The cure is to file the backs of the link lugs a little at a time until, with the barrel pushed all the way back (tensioning the link) they just kiss the impact face at the same time the barrel's chamber exterior evenly comes to rest in the cradle.

It is by far easiest to buy a tube of high spot blue to apply to the cradle and impact face with a Q-tip, then check your filing by watching where the barrel picks the blue up in the test. Scrape the lugs where you see blue until the blue from the cradle marks along the chamber exterior and the impact face marks the backs of the link lugs simultaneously.

At this point you have to check that the bottom of the chamber doesn't overhang the feed ramp, and be prepared to contour it forward 1/32" beyond the top end of the feed ramp if it does.

Nick

Nick

[Unclenick]

Pyro,

When the slide-to-frame fit is loose, a barrel fit four full lockup will be pushed up by the link lugs riding the slide stop pin until the bottom of the ways in the slide touch up against the bottom of the front of the rails. The back of the slide has nothing jamming it up against the rails so it continues to have vertical slop and you can tip the slide and barrel up and down from that end.

If you lower the rails to achieve a more snug fit, the lugs will have to be re-cut because the slide will now be finding the underside of the rail sooner, and the link will have to be shortened to match the new cut length. The whole thing will then feel tight front to rear, however, since the tightening takes out the rear slop.

On the locking lug engagement, try another couple of tests:

Just to double check the barrel/cradle thing, put the barrel and frame and slide stop together as before, but with a little oil on the slide stop. Gently pull the barrel back into counter battery position so it isn't tensioned hard to the rear, then use your thumb to bear straight down on the barrel above the cradle while pulling out the slide stop. It should come out easily. If the slide stop drags hard or if the barrel moves down at all at the front when you pull it free, you have the problem I described before, if only slightly. You can use candle smoke or lighter smoke instead of high spot blue to detect touching.

Put the frame and barrel and bushing together. Pull the slide back toward counter battery. Push down through the ejection port on the barrel to seat it in the frame cradle. The slide should move back freely from where the breech face contacts the barrel hood and not catch or stick on the barrel.

If, with the slide stop pulled (which allows the barrel to lie down in the cradle for sure), the slide still doesn't operate freely, you have a dimensional issue with one of your parts. This could be anything from the bushing center hole being too high to barrel diameter at the chamber being too large, to the slide way location being too high, to the slide's barrel channel being bored off-axis low, to the frame's cradle being milled too high. You will be in for some fun checking all that out.

Nick