Broken Ejector?

[SMMAssociates]

I _hope_ this is a new thread....

(I've been hanging in the "Para" section for a couple months, but not here.)

I inherited a nice old Commander a while back, and it just sat. Somewhere along the line I took it out a few times, and was impressed enough to grab a Para Tac-Four. (I don't like "condition one" much.)

Between hither and thither, the Commander's been on the shelf again until last week. I took it out and had a bunch of feed failures "out of nowhere".

What's happening is that the fired casing is sticking to the extractor & breech face, and the next round, of course, can't feed. Clean, well lubricated, etc.

I _think_ that the ejector is broken. It doesn't look "right", but I'm not an expert. (I ordered a new one from Brownells - should be here tomorrow, but the pictures in their catalog look about the same as what I've got.)

What I have is a rectangular ejector with a long about 45 degree bevel on the top of the corner that would contact the shell. My Para's ejector has a protrusion that's a good quarter inch long. This one kind of looks like it had a protrusion, but it was broken off....

I'm told that diddling the ejector is not unusual in "tuning" a .45 for a particular load, etc., and that other issues might be causing the problem. (The ammunition used - bulk reloads from a local commercial reloader - last week was somewhat hotter than the same sort of reloads I was using before, and seems to be a little lighter than Wolf FMJ's, which also made it through before. I didn't have any with me this time.)

I wish I could ask the guy who set this one up, but he's no longer with us. He never mentioned what he'd done to the Commander. (I was supposed to get a 1911 in .38 Super, but one of the other bequest recipients wanted it and I wanted something in .45 Cal anyway. They look at you funny at Wally World around here when you ask for .38 Super....) I'm not sure who did the work - he was capable, but....

SO, any thoughts. I've got two other barrels (and what appear to be matched springs - whatever that's all about).... One extra barrel looks "stock", but the other is a bit long No idea what that means. Standard short guide rod, rubber recoil pad :confused: , extended slide stop and safety, and Pachmayr grips. Shoots very well when it doesn't hang up. Very well....

(It's also got a very heavy trigger - the previous owner had Diabetic Neuropathy, and set it up so he could really feel the thing. I'm going to get that changed when time permits. I ordered a new spring for that, but will probably let a gunsmith actually do it.)

Thanks!

[1911slabsides]

I hope this is in the right place too.

sounds like the extractor broke off, Commanders have extended extractors, everything you said seems to point at a broken extractor.

You also mentioned Wolf Ammo. Wolf ammo has a metal case, I've heard that it may be bad on the ejector. Some people swear by wolf. I'm wondering if the ammo may have caused the failure?

[SMMAssociates]

Slabsides:

Could be....

I wandered through Brownell's catalog, but the pictures of the Commander ejector looked more like what I have than what I want. OTOH, a "Commander Style" aftermarket ejector has the "extension"....

The new one should be here tomorrow but I'm beginning to think I should have ordered one of the "aftermarket" ejectors to be sure about this. OTOH, it said "Commander Style", and I _think_ that the ejector for the full-sized 1911 won't fit a Commander. Which seems kind of silly, but....

Seems to me that the ejector was "small" originally, but I really never noticed until I compared it to the Para _after_ the first failures.... The Wolf ammunition is indeed steel cased, but it really shouldn't break the ejector. It's supposed to be rough on the extractor, though....

Theory being that the ejector has to wrap itself around the rim, and may bite it a bit, or be deformed by a too-hard case. The ejector, OTOH, just has to whack the cartridge head to flip it out of the extractor. One would think that would be less likely to be damaged unless you got some strange stovepiping action going on. I don't recall any of that.

(OTOH, I barely remember breakfast. Which one of us did you say you were? :D )

[1911slabsides]

Well I'm trying to recall breakfast myself, but, I don't recall..........
I almost want to start over, What I understood was that the case was staying in the extractor and against the breech after the round was fired, It would seem that it would have to be the ejector (if that is what I understood what I think you might have said.) I had heard that thing about wolf ammo, and most people seem to like wolf, (I don't know if I like wolf but I don't even know if I liked breakfast) Well seeing that the part will be there soon, I say throw it on and if it works we can both act like we know what we are doing, Maybe someday we'll go to breakfast,

[stans]

It could be a broken ejector, it happens, but not very often. What ammo are you using. The ammo could be too weak for recoil spring. Are you using a shock buffer on the recoil spring guide rod? If so, get rid of it, they cause this sort of problem in Commander and shorter models. Is the chamber smooth and totally free of debris? Does the extractor hold a round tightly, or does the rim just drop from under the extractor?

[1911slabsides]

If the empty case is still under the extractor hook and sitting against the breech face, It's got to be the ejector. With an ejector that is functioning even if something else is broken there is no way the round would stay under the extractor hook, My bet is on the ejector.

[SMMAssociates]

Stans:

There is a rubber shock buffer in the thing. It was fine, though, with some other reloads ("manufacturer" stuff, not homebrew), but is now failing with similar (it's actually a tad hotter) reloads. Brass cases, 230gr lead ball, etc.

I also put some Wolf FMJ's through it somewhere along the line. I was using two ranges, and one only permits lead, so I blew away some of the FMJ's at the other one (he doesn't care). AFAIK, this thing never failed until the other night, but we all know that means nothing. It was clean, etc.... I'm not exactly anal about it, but the general rule is that they don't sit more than a day or two after shooting without being cleaned. I probably put too much oil in the action for "storage", but the barrel and breech face (and the slide's internals) are essentially dry. ("Oil film.")

As I mentioned earlier, the guy who originally owned it may have set it up "odd", too, for his own purposes, but it was OK before....

Slabsides:

It's doing exactly what you said - cartridge extracted and sitting against the breech face, held by the extractor....

The replacement part from Brownells is supposed to be in on Wednesday, although I may have to go out before I get a chance to even see the package, but I'll post something as soon as I can figure it out. Normally, Wednesday is Range Night, but we went out Tuesday night anyway 'cause my daughter is in town and wanted to shoot. (She likes my S&W M19 6" .357. I found a box of ancient Norma magnums - older than her - to let her try that. She loved it!)

Thanks to both of you.

Nothing would surprise me anymore. I watched a buddy dry fire an S&W Model 10 (.38 "Military and Police") one night when the firing pin tip went one way as the hammer dropped the other way.... Or the afternoon (about 35 years ago) when the extractor on my brand-new PPK/S broke. That released a spring that held the disconnector into the frame. Bzzzzzztttttt for about three rounds.

[1911slabsides]

I may have to retract everything I said. Shock buffers on a commander just don't work out. The commanders recoil stroke is shorter than the standard government model. The shock buff shortens the stroke even more, That buff may be your problem. Stans probably hit the nail righ on the head when he mentioned the shock buffer.

[SMMAssociates]

Slabsides:

Interesting....

You could be right - I could have put the fool buffer (it's just a rubber thingie) in wrong or something equally silly. More likely would be it having picked up some oil and swelled up. Easy enough to test that theory if I can talk the wife into letting me go back out to the range in the next couple days.... :D The gun DOES NOT have any fancy multiple spring widgets, and has a standard-length spring guide.

(My Para uses a full-length guide. I've read the arguments for both.)

I'm not sure if I'm going to try to swap the extractor (assuming it needs to be swapped) or let a gunsmith do it, but finding something to punch out the pin is probably the only issue there - it's tiny. I think I can handle that without too many parts leftover.

Thanks!

[1911slabsides]

They just don't recommend the shock buffer on anything other than the regular 5" barrel. I personally don't use the shock buffer at all. I kind of see the buffer as a way for some companies to line their pockets. At any rat the commander is 3/4" shorter than the government model, so the slide stroke is shorter, the distance is even shorter when the buffer is on. The commander has an extended ejector but a bit of the extension is erased by the buffer.

Changing the part out isn't a big deal, you just have to be careful when you take the extractor out and make sure you don't break off on of it's legs in the frame, you also will have to cut a notch in one of the legs in the area where the pin goes back in the frame. I'd personally try removing the buffer before I changed out the ejector, It might be a super simple fix.

Just tell your wife that you are going to check the mail. That will get you out of the house, you are on your own when you get back though. :eek:

[stans]

Shock buffers work in the Government model, but on shorter versions, the slide does not travel as far and the buffer just eats up more of the slide travel distance. I built up a commander model and had all kinds of trouble. Failure to extract, stove pipes, and when it did successfully eject, half of them impacted my forehead. I took out the shock buff and all the extraction problems ceased. Mine is now 100% reliable.

[SMMAssociates]

Slabsides:

Thanks for the commentary....

I was wondering how the heck that ejector was pinned to the frame 'cause there's no hole in it.... :)

(The parts showed up this AM....)

The original ejector I have appears to have been tweaked a bit, but it's essentially the same one that just showed up today. Unless it was longer in the first place and broke off.

I'm going to call the gunsmith later today - I've got some other work for him anyway - and see if he's got any ideas too, but removing the buffer is something I know I can do :p .

(I wish I could get out to the range tonight to test this. Doesn't look likely at this point, but I might have a chance tomorrow.)

What's puzzling about this is it just suddenly happening. However, while my memory says that I was shooting lead ball reloads the last time out with the Commander, it might have been Wolf FMJ's. The guy I got the gun from may have tuned it for some hot defensive loads, which would be closer to the Wolfs than those "you bought what?!" reloads.

(The reloads were/are "factory", bought by my dealer in large lots, or made by a mom & pop reloading outfit nearby. They crank 'em out by the ton, too, with no complaints. I do know where I can get some that kind of dribble out the end of the barrel and don't always want to cycle the action, but somebody warned me first.)

OTOH, I've never used FMJ's at the range I _think_ I had it at last....

I don't see how you could screw up putting that buffer back in during a cleaning, but they do wear out, or could be affected by lubricants, and you have to consider who was doing the cleaning. :eek:

(Jigsaw-Puzzles-R-Us.... My S&W M39's worse, though. You have to hold the slide back under most of the recoil spring's pressure to pop out the slide stop. Normally, a tool, or a loaded cartridge is used. I bought that one before 1975.)

[1911slabsides]

the buffer is pretty easy to figure out. when you are at the house, retract the slide and mark where it stops, then put on or take off the shock buff, check to see how far the slide goes back with the buffer and without the buffer. there is a pretty huge difference, 1911's all of them are forgiving pistols but the tolorances are really measured in thousands of inches, a shock buff is a big fat pig right in the middle of the whole thing that IMHO doesn't do a thing but line somebodies pocket.

[new1911er]

A buddy of mine had the same prob with his commander. We took it to a few different gunsmiths, then to the range after each one. On our last visit to a local mom and pop type gunsmith he took the extracter out and took a little tension off it. We have a buffer pad in ours too, he said no big deal. Anyways after he took off some tension the dang thing fired better than mine. Give that a try and see if it works. Should hopefully fix your problem.

[SMMAssociates]

Dropped the thing off with the gunsmith about 1845 tonight.

He's sure that the old ejector is OK, but is concerned about the extractor, and has agreed with "toss the buffer."

Film at 11.... :)

He's going to do a trigger job for me, too - as I mentioned, the former owner set it up very heavy.

He also swapped mainspring housings on my Para Tac-Four while I was there. I've been trying to do this for about a month, but the right housing finally showed up. I just prefer the arched housing. Para seems to prefer straight....

Thanks to everybody here for comments - I'll post a follow up as soon as I hear from him.

Stu.

[new1911er]

The arched mainspring housing is better.That is what i have done to mine. It is alot more comfortable in the hand. If you really wanna have fun with it get the lightweight polymer one. It has a better feel and the finish dont wear of like it will with the blued steel. Anyways let me know how you like the new arched one on your 1911.

[SMMAssociates]

New1911er:

I ended up with steel. The Para Tac-Four is a sort of double-stack Commander in a strange Double-Action Only variant they call "LDA". ("Light Double Action.") It shoots like my old S&W M19 (.357 revolver) in double action mode, but with a somewhat shorter trigger throw. "Suspended" trigger, too, like a revolver. Very light trigger for a DA, although you're not going to mistake it for an SA.

This one's green, but they make a SS version, too. I'm still not sure, other than "they had one and not the other", why I bought a green one.... ;)

Because the gun itself isn't too heavy, the extra weight of the effectively double-thick mainspring housing isn't too terrible. (Width is the same. While the Para doesn't quite match ordinary 1911 grip frame dimensions, it's not too far off. Just enough that you need "custom" grips and such....) I have the feeling that the bluing will come off - a good deal of it has already done so in areas that aren't green. But that's easy to fix.

What happened here with the mainspring housing is that I have an S&W M39 (nearly the same size, but single-stack 9mm), a Commander (don't have to explain that to this group :) ) , and an old PPK/S. All of which have essentially the same grip contours. (The PPK/S is a little flatter.) I find that I shoot the Para about 3" low at 25' (it's NOT the gun). I can easily compensate, but then the hold is not quite the same as the others, and in a panic, may not be possible. Putting the arched housing on the Para _should_ bring it into line with the others, and make the holds about the same. It's a "natural pointing" issue rather than a sighting issue, too.

That tendency to "point" low seems to be why the Government went for the arched housing on the M1911A1 so many years ago, too.

Probably will get out Tuesday to try it. Meantime, the Commander should be back by then. I still may sneak out over the weekend, but the wife thinks I spend too much time on the range anyway. Since I already know I can get it to shoot where I want it to with slightly extraordinary measures, I'm not in a panic to try it.

I'm learning way too much about these things.... :eek:

Stu.

[RickB]

A lot of "extractor" and "ejector" being used interchangeably in early posts. I think you already understand it is the ejector that appears to be broken; if the tip does not extend about 1/4" over the magwell, it is broken. The combination of the that and the shok buff is enough to keep the fired case from ever contacting the ejector. The Commander's slide stroke is shorter than a Government Model, so the extended ejector was intended to restore the relationship of the breechface and extractor to the tip of the ejector when the slide is fully to the rear; break off the tip of the ejector and limit the rearward travel of the slide by the thickness of a buffer, and you have no ejection. My Commander has a Government Model ejector and it works just fine, but if I put a thick buffer in it, it would probably act just like your gun. Install a proper Commander ejector and lose the buffer, and you should be fine.

[SMMAssociates]

Rick:

I _hope_ I've not managed to confuse "extractor" and "ejector"....

But anything could happen. Tuesday was "range night" and Wednesday was "cleaning night". Hoppe's does odd things to people. :)

My gunsmith suggested that there might be a problem with the extractor. I _hope_ that was the only time I used that word....

The ejector that was there looks OK, but indeed may have been shortened or, if it'd been an "extended" model, broken off right about where the extension part seems to be found. The gunsmith said it looked OK, and it does look like the replacement part I got from Brownells. More or less.... I'm no expert.

He also agreed that the recoil buffer pad may be the problem, or at least part of it. What's odd, and what pointed me to look at the ejector, is that _I think_ this just started.... The gun was in it's original Colt box, "on the shelf", for a couple of months, after having a hundred rounds or so through it without problems, and being cleaned. I'm not anal about cleaning, but my _guess_ would be that any crud issues would have made the weapon completely unreliable instead of just doing mid-roll failures, albeit somewhat consistently.

I'm guessing that whatever got on the recoil buffer due to cleaning may have caused it to swell. That, and a _maybe_ "tuned" ejector (or some dirt in the extractor, or some combination of that) could explain these mid-roll failures. While the folks who make these reloads do a good job, a very tiny variation in the powder charge, bullet seating, or primer, could move a very iffy situation off "good" fairly easily.

The guy who willed me the gun was a perfectionist, and had this thing "set up" to suit him. It's possible that he'd adjusted everything possible for a precise load - his reloads or a particular factory load. (This was one of his favorite "carry" guns.) He used to weigh powder charges twice.... I'd believe anything.... Rubber also tends to absorb some solvents - I _thought_ I'd been careful, but.... I just wipe the spring guide and buffer with a bit of Hoppe's, and then later with some oil. I suppose too much of one or the other is possible.

The gunsmith called about noon - I'll have it before supper, although I don't think I'll get a chance to test fire it before next Tuesday. I'll post something....

(He's got a range there, but it's rather expensive, and I'm a member of another one that I can use "free" if I'm willing to drive out there. I don't think the wife would appreciate it tonight :D but maybe I'll sneak the range bag out when I go....)

Stu.

[SMMAssociates]

Well, the gunsmith has spoken....

The ejector is fine.

The extractor (where it rides over the case rim) apparently was bent. I doubt if I did it, but.... He claims that letting the slide close on a case that's already in the receiver can do it. I'll believe it for the Wolf steel cases.

He said that the recoil buffer was fine, based on the recoil spring being "ordinary". I yanked it anyway....

The trigger job _really_ did the job, though. :D

I think I limp-wristed one or two, but about 30 rounds made it through more or less fine.

I can live with this. It'll need some more "practice", and I think I'm going to look into Cobra Mags, but I think it's ready.

It appears that I ordered the wrong trigger spring, but he was able to use the one that was in there.

Thanks to all!


Stu.

[RickB]

A couple out of 30 didn't feed? Didn't extract? Didn't eject? You should be able to go 1000 rounds without a malfunction of any kind.

[stans]

He claims that letting the slide close on a case that's already in the receiver can do it. I'll believe it for the Wolf steel cases.

Never drop the slide on an empty chamber or a loaded chamber. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber causes the hammer and sear to bounce and will peen those nice, sharp engagement surfaces and will result in an inconsistant trigger pull and a sear that may let the hammer fall at inopportune moments.

Dropping the slide on a chambered round hammers the front of the extractor and causes it to flex outward more than normal in order to snap over the rim. This can deform the extractor and will definitely lead to the extractor loosing tension and possibly cracking.

The 1911 was designed as a controlled feed weapon where the rim of the cartridge slides up under the extractor as it feeds.

[SMMAssociates]

Rick:

I'm pretty sure I limp-wristed those misfeeds. Didn't have time to run more through it.

I was so surprised that it worked at all.... :eek:

(The old trigger was _very_ stiff.... Now I gotta start thinking about a beavertail job....) :D


Stan:

Never heard of "don't drop the slide on an empty chamber" before, but you're not the first to tell me not to drop it on a full one....

I'm reasonably certain that's what dinged the extractor, but I don't remember doing it. :o

Stu

[John]

Follow Stan's advise, do not drop the slide on either an empty or a loaded chamber. Our 1911s do not love this treatment. Your trigger pull can go south with either of these procedures and your extractor would live longer if you avoid the second one.

My 2 Eurocents only.

[SMMAssociates]

John:

I'm reasonably certain about this, but one thing sticks in the back of my mind: John Browning designed this thing to be used by "average" military personell, who probably couldn't be trusted to follow this advice without a nasty Sgt. standing directly overhead.

It's kind of like putting a big "DO NOT PUSH THIS BUTTON" sign over a button on the wall and expecting my kid not to push it. :eek:

While it's extremely easy to swap an extractor, it seems a little unlikely that all those spares would have been used. :)

Without a lot of punishment....

I've owned the Commander for a while now, but just started shooting it a few months ago. (Long story.) So I'm no expert. But you'd think that a gun that was designed to still work after somebody drove a jeep over it while in the mud, wouldn't be that fragile.

OTOH, steel cases may not have been on the menu in 1911.

Stu.

[stans]

It is not the least bit fragile if used properly. The 1911 was designed to be fed from the magazine. In a combat situation, no one is going to manually shove a round in the chamber and then let the slide fly, instead they are going to shove a full magazine into the mag well and let the slide fly. Doing it this way, the slide's momentum is slowed by the round riding up the breech face and the extractor is not over bent trying to snap over the rim of the cartridge. Do some searches and you will find this is long standing advice.

[SMMAssociates]

Stan:

Makes perfect sense, but I'm still not convinced :D .

Murphy's law seems to require closing the slide on an empty chamber by the "kids" who'd be using these things in the Military. You and I, being older (I guess), wiser, and mostly 'cause we're going to get the bill, would follow about any sensible (or possibly non-sensible) idea about protecting our investment.

(Just read up on how to clean a black powder rifle bore. Major "you've got to be kidding" situation unless you know why, _and_ care.)

Hm.... I bought a Colt "Argentine" for a friend back in the late 60's. These were sold off by the Argentine military after some years of holster wear. The one I got was pretty solid, and looked good, until you looked at the bore. Rifling? We don't need no steenkin rifling. Apparently they were using corrosive-primed ammo and nobody explained the cleaning drill. He found another barrel - another friend of his had one - and all was well. I wish I'd bought one, too. $75-ish, but I didn't have it.

That's the Colt that I stripped on the dealer's counter and then headed for the door with "bye Frank!". "COME BACK HERE and put this thing back together!" He knew how, but didn't want to get his hands dirty or something.... Or maybe not....

(Various models of that gun - this one was a relatively pure 1911 with Argentine military markings. I thought it was made under license in Argentina, but I'm not sure. They later redesigned the 1911 a bit, so some models don't even look like one. Frank, my favorite dealer at the time was always looking for a "deal".... He bought a pile of ancient Remington shotguns when the City PD decided to upgrade, and sold them off for a few bucks each. Should have grabbed one of those, too, but they were older than I am.)

Stu.

[stans]

The Ballister Mollina's were the redesigned 1911's, but the Argentine model 1927's were made under license and are true Colt 1911-A1 copies. The prices on the 1927's are really starting to go up now that the supply is drying up.

[John]

Stu,

you are of course right that the 1911 was not designed for delicate work, but then, the trigger pulls of the original pistols (military grade) had nothing to do with the trigger pulls of our latest speciments. A good trigger job can be destroyed quickly by letting the slide go forward on a pistol without the loaded magazine to slow it down.

Rgds

[1911Tuner]

SMMAssociates said:

Makes perfect sense, but I'm still not convinced.
____________________

Well...what would it take to convince you that stans gave very good advice
on dropping the slide on a chambered round? How 'bout the same from an armorer with 40 years...give or take a month...experience with the 1911.

Yes...The original spring-tempered steel extractors were designed to allow
that in an emergency, but not on a regular basis. it'll take the tension out of the extractor pretty quickly, and will lead to breakage in fairly short order.
last-ditch efforts to survive an UTYAIA experience are different. There's no concern over the effects when you have a gun and ammo, but no magazine.

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is also a bad thing to do to a 1911.
Not only is it bad for the sear, it's rough as hell on the lower barrel lug and
slidestop cross pin. The lower lug feet are too small to absorb the shock of the 16-ounce slide propelled by a 16-pound recoil spring. Barrel linkdown timing can be delayed to the point of non-function and or damage to the
locking lugs...The crosspin can be bent or broken...and the lower lug can
crack where it joins the barrel...and when it happens, it's usually without warning.

Don't mean to sound like a jerk...but this one has likely been discussed on
hundreds of threads on several forums.

Tuner----->out! :cool:

[SMMAssociates]

Stans:

I wish I'd bought one of those Argentines.... These were likely the Model 1927's - I'm no 1911 expert, but a friend loaned me one for a while in that time frame, and it was identical to the Argentine I bought for the other friend.

(Except for the Argentine markings, of course. Same innards as far as a quick cleaning-style stripdown would show.)

(I don't know what happened to it - he died about ten years ago, and I lost track of his family. He lived on a farm, and wanted something "around the house". While he didn't have a lot of experience with the 1911, he had a buddy who was in the Air Force Reserve hereabouts who could keep him in ammo and provide some training, and a barrel. Never got a lot of feedback, but he didn't shoot anybody with it.)

John:

Sorry - I keep forgetting that even the cheapest out-of-the box 1911 can be turned into a serious (i.e., accurate, reliable, etc.) weapon for a couple bucks if it's cared for properly. I've been around long enough to know this, but mostly involved with S&W revolvers and a couple of semi's - an S&W M39 and a PPK/S. We won't even mention the S&W "Escort" (.22 Cal semi - kind of a five or six shot derringer). So, when we start talking about fragility in a weapon that's designed to double as a truck wheel chock.... :D (Those S&W's do need some care.)

Tuner:

Points taken.... Guess you know what you're doing. I certainly don't.... I always try to take care of my weapons, and don't do the "drop the slide on a cartridge" trick as a matter of course for safety reasons. A friend (same guy I borrowed that 1911 from years ago) gave me an old .32 auto to clean up for sale. It was loaded.... :eek:

That, in itself didn't bother me. Long term Law Enforcement background, long term lack of sanity, whatever, and he did say that he thought it might be. "It's been on a shelf in the basement for a while...." I just stuck it into my pocket after verifying that the safety lever was "on".

(Kinda dumb in retrospect, but at the time I could legally carry anyway, so....)

When I cleared it, I noticed a deep dent in the primer. I pointed the thing in a safer direction (there's "safe" and there's "good backstop"....) and cycled another round. Another big dent....

Thats when I dug out the flashlight and looked. The firing pin was sticking out a bit.... Rusted.... Apparently not quite far enough to fire in normal handling, but that's when dropping a cartridge into the chamber and closing the slide dropped off the radar. No idea how it found itself sticking out like that.

(1911 clone - can't think of the manufacturer or any of the details, but you'd probably be able to strip it for cleaning with the lights out. I know I could. Getting it back together, OTOH....)

As you can see from my note to John, above, I do tend to forget that these things are usually tuned up for convenience and accuracy, and that it's possible to muck some of that up in handling. My Commander just got a (another) trigger job!

However, I'm starting to believe that the extractor function is Voodoo.... That little bitty ejector seems to be wishful thinking, too.

What's really funny about this - I've been involved with firearms for nearly 40 years, although with a long hiatus, but the only thing I ever really remember caring about was details of reloading and a little bit of "stone this, but not that" used in smoothing out a revolver action. A 1911 seems to be more like a car.... All kinds of things to diddle for best "whatever".

(We won't mention that my Para cost more than my first car, or a good 1911 can cost more than my second car....)

Thanks to ALL for their input and advice. I'm chastened :o

Stu.

[SMMAssociates]

Guys:

My old brain seems to have been turned on somehow - something percolated to the top. :eek:

There's been a reference to trigger jobs going west if the extractor is damaged.

I believe that this is indeed possible where there's a firing pin safety in the weapon. The interaction between the slide (which is going to be affected by the extractor's "condition", I think) and the safety seem to be obvious even to the uninformed (i.e., me).

But the Commander in question has no firing pin safety. I don't think that the other things that could impinge on the trigger (the hammer's relationship to the rear of the slide, the barrel link, and maybe the disconnector) could really affect the trigger.

(I _do_ see where other things might be involved - the way the barrel seats in the slide, etc., but not with the trigger either.)

Educate me, please. :confused:

Stu.

[John]

This is the first time I hear that an extractor condition can affect the trigger job. Sorry, but I do not see this possible, no matter if the pistol has or does not have a firing pin safety.

Rgds

[stans]

I could see extractor damage as an indicator of abuse and abuse can be and is highly detrimental to a trigger job.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy SMM,

If you mean lettin' the slide fly on an chambered round or an empty chamber...yep...and the lack or presence of a passive firing pin safety doesn't change anything. Inertia is the culprit here.

Here's what happens:

When the slide flies at full speed to battery, or just short of battery, as with a chambered round, the gun jerks forward violently for a short distance. The
trigger obeys Newton's law which tells it to stand still, and...because the rest of the gun is moving forward...it nudges the sear.

The hammer also causes the mainspring to compress just a nano-fraction of an inch...the amount of which depends on how stiff the mainspring and how heavy hammer. Many smiths will install a lighter mainspring and use the stock
hammer in an effort to lighten the trigger pull even further, (instead of using a lightened hammer) and the hammer breaks contact with the sear for a nanosecond.

The trigger has nudged the sear...resulting in a little movement. The hammer
returns to position under pressure from the mainspring...but it doesn't grab the sear in the correct place, and leaves the hammer hooks standing right on the tip of the sear. This bounce causes the tips of the hooks and the tip if the sear's primary angle to become rounded or battered, and will soon start
to let the hammer slip off the sear. If things are just right, the hammer will follow to half-cock, further damaging the sear, or it will jar off and burst fire.

Savvy smiths will install a lightened trigger and hammer to work against this inertial 'bounce"...but it doesn't always work. Very light, crisp trigger jobs
are accomplished with very short, square hammer hooks...and narrowed sear primary angles...Hooks are often as short as .018 inch...and sear primary angle widths as little as .015 or so. That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. All it takes for bounce to occur...(even when the gun is chambering a round in the correct way)..is a mainspring or sear spring that gets a little tired. (Sear springs are also usually tweaked to reduce their load against the trigger, which
increases the time required to reset the sear into the hammer.)

The engineer's axiom states that: "Whenever one thing is changed, plan on changing three other things to compensate for the "improvement." Changing one thing rarely affects one part of the function...it usually has an affect on several aspects of the machine, and these effects aren't always immediately apparent.

That trigger job that is Oh-So-Sweet when new is a much different animal 5 or 10 thousand rounds later. Things have changed. Hooks and sears wear...Springs get tired...The slide to frame fit loosen up a little, letting the slide move faster and hit harder as it goes to battery.

Hope this helps...Cheers!

Tuner

[SMMAssociates]

Thanks guys....

John - I think Tuner explained it fairly well.

Tuner:

There I went again, looking for a "direct" connection instead of looking at the overall picture. I think the short answer is "accellerated wear on parts that need to be treated with gentleness." Seems silly in something like a 1911, but as you and others have said, when these things are tuned, they're no longer the "wheel chocks" we (I) expect them to be.

Been there, too! A friend of mine had his 1911 "tuned" some time back - that's how I noticed that my Commander's trigger pull was much heavier than I thought it should have been. The former owner set it up for a very heavy pull -maybe 10 pounds, or more. He had diabetic neuropathy, and needed to _really_ feel the thing. Enough strength in his fingers, and I know he practiced, to safely and accurately shoot it that way, but it was heavy.

I tried my buddy's 1911 and noticed that it was more like my old S&W M39. Maybe better.... That's when I started thinking about getting the Commander tuned.

Meantime, my buddy had his modified - a big beavertail and some sight work. He's not particularly interested in carrying it, so the sights are kind of "target". But when he got it back, the thing was horrible. Trigger pull (subjectively) was about twice as stiff, and it just wasn't behaving.

Nothing better to do, so we kept on shooting it. At about 50 rounds he said "try it now" and handed it to me. Whoa.... Not quite back where it had been (then - it's fine now), but it wasn't the same gun!

That, I'm sure, was just "working parts getting to know each other" - like stoning the flat surfaces on a revolver's action parts (not the sear & such) so they ride over each other and the side plates smoothly, and, of course, getting some lubricants into the "right" places, or out of them....

Shoulda thought of that.... :D

Again, thanks! I've been learning a lot. I'm still not sure I'll ever carry the Commander regularly, but want to be able to should the need arise. A Para Tac-Four and a PPK/S are my "regular" carry, depending on invisibility needs. The Commander's the same size as the Para (somewhat thinner grip frame) but shares it's leather. The M39 doesn't share the "formed" leather, but fits a couple of IWB's if I'm in a 9mm mood. :p

Regards,

Stu.

[SMMAssociates]

I think I mentioned a couple of misfeeds due to what I thought was limp-wristing.

That wasn't it....

The firing pin retainer (I'm not sure what it's actually called - the little widget that holds the firing pin in place) was dropping down out of position, causing the slide to close slowly, if at all, as it hung up on the hammer.

This seemed to somehow raise the slide lock, and occasionally turn the safety on!

(As I stated, this thing's older than the firing pin safety addition.)

If I pop the retainer back into it's proper location, it's fine for a while. Stretching the firing pin spring a bit to help keep things together didn't help. One time the retainer ended up in my shirt pocket, and the firing pin and spring ended up on the floor!

My guess is that the gunsmith filed a bit of the extractor (to clean it up), and some crud ended up in the firing pin hole, slowing it down. That's about the only explanation I can think of....

(The slide stop issue is probably some bounce in the magazine as the slide pops back. No idea about the safety - guess my big hand could be bumping it, but.... )

I'm going to clean the firing pin and extractor _holes_ in the slide (and the parts, too) and see if that helps. At least it's extracting properly now.... :)

Anybody?

Stu.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Stu,

That's not a common problem, but I've seen it happen a few times. Two fixes.
One easy, one a little more complicated, but not a lot more...and much more reliable.

Install a new firing pin spring. The one that you stretched won't last long since stretching a spring exceeds its elastic limit and weakens it further. That's called an Emergency Field Expedient Repair. It'll work for a short time, but the spring should be replaced as soon as possible. They're cheap...about
2 bucks from Brownells.

The other fix involves fitting an oversized firing pin stop to the slide...and is
one of the things that I normally do on a reliability tune-up because it also allows me to use an EGW square-bottomed stop with a small radius cut into
the bottom...as per the original design. Many benefits come from that modification. It's also a good idea to replace the firing pin spring about every 5,000 rounds or so.

When fitting an oversized stop, you want a light press-fit...not so tight that it makes removal difficult, but tight enough that the stop won't fall out of position. it's also important that the sides of the stop are square and that the firing pin will reset through the hole without binding. Not tough to do, but it should be done correctly. I can provide Brownells' part numbers and their toll-free if you need it.

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

Thanks!

I have another spring here someplace. It wasn't in my bag last night, though.... :)

I agree that stretching the spring is not a good idea, but I wanted to see if that was the problem.

Didn't seem to help....

Either the firing pin stop is screwed up, or the slide's cuts for it are, or Dave left some real crud in the firing pin's "hole". I'm betting on the latter, although I'm not sure how he did it. When I picked the gun up, I headed out to the range for a couple of quick test shots and as I mentioned, thought I'd limp-wristed it when a couple of rounds didn't quite get the idea.

Later that night, I wasn't going to clean it because I was going back out in a couple of days (bless non-corrosive materials :D ), but I opened the slide to look at the ejector and extractor "one more time" and noticed some crud on the slide near the breech face. (Dave said he shot it, and there were a few rounds missing from the box I'd left with him.... I'm starting to wonder....)

Anyway, I did clean it, and Q-tipped the extractor area pretty well, too, but didn't bother taking the slide apart any further. Oops, I guess....

I'm going to run out and grab some pipe cleaners (the kid stole the ones I had) and clean the whole mess tonight. (Looks like the next time "out", though, will be next week.)

I'm concerned by how easy it is to slip that retainer out, but as I recall they're not all that solid anyway. As you mentioned, a nice firm "you really want to do this?" sort of fit might be better than just dropping free if you push in the firing pin, might be better.

I _think_ the pin's mating surface with the stop is OK, and the slot looks OK, too, but the light wasn't quite up to a serious look last night. (Indoor range - most of the lighting is directed at the targets, and I wasn't really looking at "details" - just putting the thing back together.)

IAC, I would appreciate the Brownells part number for the retainer - they're great to deal with, but apparently (I've had some serious fun with them) you _must_ order the right thing if you don't plan on spending a lot of time at the post office. Return policy is great, too, but see the preceding sentence.

What I think is supposed to happen is that when you drop the hammer on the firing pin in a normal firing sequence, the pin goes quite a ways forward, far enough to clear the retainer, but other things keep everything together until the pin bounces back. If the pin is delayed - crud, bad spring, etc., poof.

The only other option is that the pin wanders around during the ejection part of the cycle - running forward as the slide comes back - pretty much the same story. Both, of course, require that the retainer be in the right place, and that the pin engage it as designed.

The retainer definitely was clean, and the rear of the pin appeared to be clean, too. Some crud on the forward part of the pin, though.

The stop appears to have a half-round at the bottom where it acts against the hammer - no "square bottom" I think.


Thanks!

Stu.

Speaking of Q-tips, I'd been letting my wife buy me a giant bag of cheap ones for some time. The good ones are a little better, but since we're going to destroy them in seconds, it's probably not worth it as long as you're careful and don't leave fibers if they "leak". The wife and I were in a drug store after supper one Saturday night a few weeks ago, looking for a toothbrush (don't ask) and we had to walk past the makeup area. Targeting "impulse buyers", I guess. Bang.... Right in the middle of it all was a pack of Q-tips with one pointy end, and one flat end. About $1.80 for fifty or a hundred. You know those little narrow places you can't quite force a Q-tip into? Right.... Kind of expensive, so I just use them for the nooks & crannies that the cheap ones don't fit.

This can't be new, but....

[1911Tuner]

Howdy,

The number for the EGW square-bottomed stop is 296-100-001. The bottom is dead square and requires that you cut a radius into it. I suggest laying a medium India stone on a table and using a swiping motion to form the radius,
being careful to keep it straight and even from side to side. Slow...but the results are worth it. The small radius on the stop is per the original design,
and delays slide movement and barrel unlock timing for a split second, and
bleeds off momentum from the slide which reduces slide to frame impact for a given spring rating. Original specs call for a .078 radius +/- .003 inch...but eyeball estimation will do pretty well.

The stop is oversized on all dimensions, and you'll probably have to fit it to the width of the extractor slot as well as to the slide. Reduce the thickness by dragging it on a mill file with the front side down...the part that faces the front of the gun. When it fits the extractor slot, stop and bevel the sharp corners to let it sit deep into the slot.

Fit the width to the slide by dragging the edges on the file, and remove an equal amount from both edges for the pre-fitting. When it will slip in with a little pressure, install the extractor and check the fit. Fit the stop to the extractor by removing material from the right side of the stop, maintaining the bevel after each cut to keep the edge deep in the extractor slot. Whenthe
stop will just fit flush with the bottom of its seat in the slide, lightly bevel all edges. If you're careful to keep the edges parallel and square, it will stay in place and won't allow the extractor to rotate in its channel.

Use a 60 degree countersink in the firing pin hole...front and back...to break the sharp edge left by the file and to create a light chamfer around the edge of the hole. Use a fine-cut Swiss file to break all sharp edges and corners to prevent stress cracking, and the stop should outlast the gun. Final-polishing
of the fitted surfaces is optional, but makes it slide in and out a bit more smoothly. Use 600-grit wet or dry paper laid flat on the stone or a piece of glass. The paper is available in the automotive bodywork section of most auto-parts stores.

Luck!

Tuner

[lil toad]

I'm not sure but I think all 1911's regardless of slide length cycle the same distance. I have a 1911 in 5", 4 1/4", and 3 1/2" lengths, and they all seem to work the same. The commander and officer's models have extended ejectors on them and stiffer recoil springs, but other than that I think the slides move the same distance to eject the cartridges. The cartridge sticking in the extractor definitely sounds like a buffer or recoil spring problem. The majority of pistols come from the factory with more recoil spring than they actuallly need. I believe they are simply trying to prevent frame abuse by people who wish to hot road their guns.
I've fired thousands of rounds through my 1911's and have never broke an extractor. I read about it and hear about it, but have never seen it or experienced it.
My advise to you is to give Brownells a call and order a couple of springs starting at 18 lbs and work back from there until it ejects with authority.
Also keep in mind that relaxing your grip can cause failures to eject.

[1911Tuner]

lil toad said:

I'm not sure but I think all 1911's regardless of slide length cycle the same distance. I have a 1911 in 5", 4 1/4", and 3 1/2" lengths,
_________________

Howdy lad. The Commanders (4.25 inch) have .100-inch (nominal) shorter frame rails than the Government Models, and the Officer's Model class pistols are...IIRC... .125 shorter. They have a shorter stroke in recoil, and require the extended ejectors. To check that...Pull the slide fully to the frame on a 5-inch gun and a 4.25-inch gun and look at the distance from breechface to to disconnector centerline. Then compare the Commander-length gun to the Officer's Model.

The reason that I'm not sure about the Officer's Model class is that I don't pay much attention to'em, and rarely work on one. They're a little persnickety to tune for reliability sometimes...Commander-length is about as short as I like to go for that purpose. A Commander has about the same length of slide travel as a GM with a shock buffer in the system, and a Commander with a buffer has a little less than a stock Officer's model unless the guide rod head thickness is reduced on a lathe.

Cheers!

Tuner

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

Thanks for the detailed information.... I'm not sure I want to do all that myself. I figure I'd destroy five of those things and maybe an extractor or two before I got it right.... :eek:

But I do appreciate it, and who knows, it might get dull around here this winter. I actually have most of the files & such around here someplace.

(The former day job had a full machine shop and die making -plastic extrusion dies, that is - facility, including EDM and CNC, and I was allowed to play with some of it. Meantime, a long-deceased great-aunt used to make small motors for Westinghouse in Pittsburgh, and apparently took home lot of small files.... I did a lot of "radio chassis" work when I was younger. Not a lot of steel, though. :) )

I put a new recoil and firing pin spring into the Commander last night, after stripping the slide - pulled out the firing pin and extractor, and cleaned everything pretty thoroughly. (I still think there was some crud left in there when Dave "tuned" the extractor.) I had 'em in stock. (To be honest, I'd ordered them for my Para Tac-Four "to have", before I forgot what to order, or Para dreamed up a new model and confused everybody.) The recoil spring is 20#, which may be a little too much, but I've got several others here to try - that's what was recommended by Wolff for the Para.

The new firing pin spring seems to be very stiff - much more so than what was there... I'm going to try to sneak out to the range Friday or Saturday PM, but it still may not happen until Tuesday or Wednesday.

However, the extractor was rather tightly in the slide. Seems to me (it's been many years) that the extractor should just fall out. Took a bit of (careful) mallet work to get it back in. I _thought_ that the stop was about all that hold the extractor in place, although a _little_ bit of friction wouldn't surprise me. Unknown if it's a stock extractor. Long skinny rectangular flat thing with a solid tubular thing at the stop end. Slot in that end for the stop. The front's got the expected "hook", and there are one or two (the brain is off duty, sorry) "bulges" in the thing that are either pivot points for the spring effect of the flat parts, or some sort of support. Or both.

Tapping it in seemed "normal", and the hole and extractor were clean and lubricated. It did seem that it was hanging up on _something_, but I couldn't see anything. Giving it a quarter turn or thereabouts would let it go in another quarter-inch, but then it would stop, and wouldn't turn either. I finally turned it back to "normal" and bashed away. About the second tap, it all but snapped into place.

Your thoughts? Seems to me that I remember the extractor as something else.

(The two other 1911's I've had around - a Colt "Argentine", and an unknown Government Model - were a long time ago. I'm pretty sure I had the GM apart, but I'm sure about the "Argentine" - that's the one that's bore was eaten out by corrosive primed ammo. I had the rest of it's slide apart for cleaning while I was trying to figure out if the bore was gone or just _very_ dirty. It was both.... :mad: )

Thanks,

Stu.

[John]

Hey Tuner, ever think of compiling a book with those instructions? I am sure you could make some money my friend, let alone that there will be a lot of new, home-gunsmiths out there. Great advise.

Rgds and tnx for sharing.

[lil toad]

I appreciate the insight on the differences on the guns. I've never compared disassembled. That's whats great about these forums. They are a vast store of knowledge.

[SMMAssociates]

First, thanks to everybody who participated. It's been quite an experience....

I (FINALLY) got out to the range last night, after cleaning the thing thoroughly and replacing the recoil and firing pin springs (and fighting the extractor back into the slide).

About 100 rounds of assorted "why would you buy that?" commercial reloads and factory rounds (230gr "ball" LRN) resulted in one misfeed, and one shot where the slide stayed open with a non-empty magazine.

Time to start thinking about further "upgrades", but I'd say we've got a keeper here. :cool:

Stu.


(Tuner - the guy who did the extractor repair and trigger work a couple weeks ago rejected the mainspring I gave him - from Brownells. "It's not for the Commander - it's for the Government Model." He just took a turn or two off the existing spring. No issues there, but I was wondering about that - I _thought_ that the mainspring housings were the same size, and so were the springs. The spring is marked for both, too.... :confused: )

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Stu,



If you mean the recoil spring, he's correct, but it'll take more than 2 coils to be short enough to function in a Commander...so I suspect that he's referring to the mainspring. More like 6-8 coils shorter on the recoil spring, depending on the spring's rating and the diameter of the wire.

If you mean the mainspring...the one that's located in the rectangular-shaped backstrap at the bottom of the grip frame, you may inform him that he's fulla sheep dip. Clipping coils off a mainspring is a no-no in a 1911, and only acceptable on a recoil spring when fine-tuning the slide's timing on the return to battery...and even that is limited.

The mainspring is the same in Government Models and Commanders. 23#
rating is standard, and I won't use one that is lighter than 21 pounds, and I for
dang sure won't clip coils off one. You can order a new mainspring from Brownells for about 3 bucks. I strongly advise a new one if yours has been cut.

Luck to ya, mah fren!

Tuner

[SMMAssociates]

Tuner:

I replaced the recoil and firing pin springs. I used a 20# Wolff I had here. I've also got three others that came with the gun - the Wolff was brand new, ordered for my Para "before everybody forgets which one is right." Figured that if there was a problem with the recoil spring I could swap in one of the others. Worked fine. I _think_ that 20# may be a little high for target loads, but I shoot generic "factory" reloads and some stuff a buddy makes up, and they're (subjectively) about as stiff as UMC 230gr FMJ's, which I think are probably pretty generic, too. IOW, not really "light", but not +P by any stretch.

That pretty much exhausts what I know about recoil springs.... Wolff recommended the 20# spring for my Para Tac-Four, which is nominally a Commander in terms of barrel length, slide length, loads, etc., and the weight of the slide. I have no idea what the other three springs that came with the Commander are....

It came with a stock barrel, a Bar-Sto with a fingered bushing but not that new-fangled "spring" link, and what appears to be a full-size GM barrel that fits. Each barrel had it's own spring when I got it. No idea why. Phil never explained how he'd set that one up before he died. Come to think of it, the longer barrel was installed when I got it. I swapped them for "looks more normal" reasons.

The stock barrel shoots about as well as I can hold it. He was a tad better than I am, but this gun has "factory" sights - no idea what he was up to, but "target" probably wasn't it. Matter of fact, it was his last carry piece.

Dave was supposed to replace the mainspring (kinda funny to hide the "main spring" down there in the mainspring housing at the bottom of the grip :) but I didn't invent the names....) with the one I gave him from Brownells marked "Government and Commander" or something that at least convinced me that it was the right one. He didn't do that....

I'm going to have to get a trigger pull gauge, but it appears that the Commander and my buddy's 1911 are nearly the same. Dave did both of them.... If you call the GM "4#", the Commander seems like 4.5/5.0# Just enough more that you can tell which is which.

He said he did that by taking a couple turns off the existing spring instead of using the one I gave him.... It was quite a bit heavier originally. Phil had diabetic neuropathy, which resulted in a seriously diminshed sense of touch in his fingers, and wanted something he could "feel". He had enough strength to smoothly operate the thing. Felt like my old Charter "Undercover" .38 in DA mode. But smoother.... LOTS smoother....

(The Charter was my first .38. Shoulda bought something better, but in 1968 they were quite inexpensive with relatively decent quality. I was a college student at the time, and saving $20 was important. Nothing to write home about, but I still have it, and it still shoots adequately for a snubbie. My next "concealment" gun - an S&W M10HB - was and is _much_ better.... Yeah - it's not a 1911....)

IAC, whatever Dave did to the trigger seems fine. Film at 11....

Thanks!

(I did order up a new extractor, firing pin, and stop, just in case. So far so good, but I'll have 'em here.)

Stu.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Stu,

Lemme get this straight...He clipped coils off the mainspring in order to lighten the trigger pull? :eek: Much to learn he has...Teach him we will. :cool:
Invite him to come aboard.


You're dead on about the 20 pound recoil spring in a Commander-length pistol.
It's too much. Springs work both ways, and slower slide velocities in recoil mean faster, more forceful return to battery. Slide to frame impact is reduced...but the lower barrel lug feet and slidestop crosspin take a harder pounding. The frame is designed to take it...The lower lug isn't.

18 is the accepted "standard"...though I normally don't go even that heavy...
and 16 is a gracious plenty for a Commander that is correctly set up.
Government Models function best with something between 14.5 and 16 pound...with 16.5 about the max. Overspringing the slide makes the magazine's timing more critical...and reducing the mainspring's load affects the slide's recoil speed and timing. There are those who would argue the point on recoil springs...but I'll stand by it. I've never found a new Colt Commander with an OEM recoil spring that tested at 18 pounds...and I've put the gauge on a bunch of'em over the last 25 years. GM springs generally run
14.5 or 15 pounds...and some have tested as low as 13.5 pounds at full compression.

[Wild Turk]

I too have a broken extractor. Where can I contact Brownells to get a new one?

WT

[1911Tuner]

I too have a broken extractor. Where can I contact Brownells to get a new one?

WT

Howdy Turk,

Extractor or ejector?

Extractor's in the slide..Ejector's on the frame. Not tryin' to be an intelligent Gluteus Maximus/Richard Cranium...just wanna make sure before I post part numbers.
( Ask me why :rolleyes: ) :D

Standin' by...

[SMMAssociates]

>>Lemme get this straight...He clipped coils off the mainspring in order to lighten the trigger pull? Much to learn he has...Teach him we will. Invite him to come aboard.

Tuner: I'll try.... That didn't make a lot of sense to me either, but the old setup was very stiff, so it's possible that this might be an exception. Seems terminally strange for a standard factory trigger. I think my deceased friend found a spring someplace that did what he wanted and that was that. When Dave was working on it for me, and he decided that the spring I gave him was wrong, he may have decided to cut the one that was in there rather than making me wait until he could get another one. :confused:

I definitely agree with you on the 20# spring being a little much! Worked OK, but the last casing flies straight back and bonks me on the head. Seems like the lack of friction from sliding over a cartridge is adding some extra oomph to the ejection. Learning more than I wanted to :D .

WT: http://www.brownells.com or 1-800-741-0015. Be real careful about which part you order - there are several, and some (apparently) aren't right for a Commander - and they don't seem to be much help if you talk to 'em. Good return policy, though. I'd feel safer if Tuner provided the part number....

[Wild Turk]

Thanks for asking me to clarify, as well as the offer to post part numbers.

I'm not a gunsmith, but the part I need is the extractor. It is the little claw that pulls the spent shell out of the barrel. The tip broke off. When I fire it, the weapon discharges, but as the slide goes back, the shell is not ejected.

And, before you post part numbers, my broken extractor is for an AMT harballer, not a Colt. One of the other members was kind enough to switch a stock Colt ejector with his own hardballer and it functioned fine. So, I assume the part is the same.

Thanks again

Wild Turk

[lil toad]

www.brownells.com