Magazine feeding question

[Tom in CA]

I have a Kimber TLE / RL with external extractor (which by the way has always extracted) After reading about feeding and the cartridge indexing under the extractor hook as a part of the feeding process I decided to play with my magazines.

I noticed that rounds fed slowly from my Kimber factory magazines usually exited the magazine ahead of the extractor and then the extractor snapped over the rim as it entered the chamber - The rounds also seemed to be hitting the feed ramp too low. It looked like the cartridges were being released too late with the tips too low. Time to bend the lips?

I then tried my other mag - a Wilson 8 shot - It seemed to be much smoother than the Kimbers and when I fed the cartridges slowly they indexed under the rim properly. The feed lips were a visibly different design. Hmmmmm.

My question is - with a slow test feed am I duplicating the process that ocuurs when actually firing? Is the feed the same with recoil and rapid slide movement or is the "slow feed test" not really relevant? Is there really something wrong with the Kimber mags?

[Frank]

I hope we hear from 1911Tuner on this one. It's a good question.

Everything I've read suggests that having the extractor pop over the rim of the cartridge is a BAD THING. It's supposed to be hard on the extractor. It may be that this isn't a problem with an external extractor, but I wouldn't be inclined to press my luck.

I have a couple of Kimbers, have tried their magazines, and they've worked. But as a general proposition, I've bought a bunch of Wilson and McCormick SS match magazines; and that's all I use.

I'd sure like to hear what 1911Tuner has to say. I've read his previous posts, and he's a wealth of knowledge about these things. From an earlier post of his, it sounds like the spring in the Kimber magazine may be too weak and isn't getting the round up fast enough to properly index under the extractor.

DVC

[stans]

with a slow test feed am I duplicating the process that ocuurs when actually firing?
Not exactly. As you noticed with slow cycling the slide, every time you will see the rounds getting ahead of the extractor. When the slide cycles fast, it's moves faster than the cartridge, so the rim will slide up under the hook. And bullets nose diving into the feed ramp is prette normal when slow cycling the slide. As long as the magazined function properly when loading the first round by the "sling shot" method and the gun runs reliably, don't mess with the mags or anything else.

[1911Tuner]

'Ol stans is good, ain't he?

Fact is, that the gun was designed to feed at full-speed. Slow hand-cycling will cause a stoppage almost every time in a stock, untweaked gun.

Read this carefully and let it sink in.

The 1911 was designed and intended to correctly function in a controlled-feed mode on every round...as are most semi-auto pistols, regardless of the extractor design. If the extractor climbs the rim during normal feeding, it's a malfunction that will eventually cause a stoppage or a parts failure.

Going to an external extractor that will allow it to snap-over/push feed is an attempt to cover for faulty magazine function. If they'd just use proper magazines with good springs, their extractors would stop failing.

[Tom in CA]

Thanks Guys! I checked my empties for marks at rear of the rim (from the extractor snappig over the rim.) - none - we will see what happens as the years go by!

[John]

we will see what happens as the years go by!

You will get older, loose your hair, gain weight, loose your eye-sight sharpness, what else? Oh and the 1911 will keep shooting and shooting and shooting, even when the cops in the streets will be carrying laser-phaser guns. :)

[wichaka]

.....even when the cops in the streets will be carrying laser-phaser guns. :)


:eek:

Bite your tongue........Death before Disco too!

[Pappy]

You will get older, loose your hair, gain weight, loose your eye-sight sharpness, what else? Oh and the 1911 will keep shooting and shooting and shooting, even when the cops in the streets will be carrying laser-phaser guns. :)

Right on John....but where can I get one of those laser-phaser guns???? Pappy

[sparky3008]

At the range this weekend I have been trying to iron out my feed problem.
I have a Springfield full size loaded model.
Stock clips.
Gun freshly cleaned and I reoiled it that day at the range.
Fails to feed on last round usually.

I had been suspecting spring but the gun isn't that old and I never leave the clips loaded.

One of the range guys came over and said it might be the lip of the clip and put a round in it and started to push it from behind slowly. It started to angle up before it should have he said and in the other clip it didn't do this.
He said I could try and squeeze the top of the clip ever so slightly to try and get the round to stop trying to exit early.
He thinks this is my problem what do you guys think?

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Sparky, and welcome aboard.


The range guy should first understand that slowly hand-feeding an untuned 1911 is almost sure to result in a stoppage. The gun was designed to feed at full speed. Also apply a little logic whenever you hear advice like this.

"If it's releasing too early and causing a stoppage on the last round...why doesn't it do it on the others?" A magazine relase timing related failure to go to battery is more likely to happen if the release is late instead of early.
At any rate, squeezing the magazine in a vise won't help, and is likely to ruin the magazine unless you've had experience with it.

Next...A failure to feed means that the round didn't enter the chamber.
If it does get into the chamber, if only just...the malfunction is a failure to go to/return to battery...which is what it sounds like you have.

Last round failure to go to battery is usually caused by one of two things...or a little of both. Too much extractor tension or not enough magazine spring tension. Pull the extractor out and see if the stoppage will repeat. if it doesn't, you've at least narrowed it down to two probabilities. Since the OEM magazines that come with the Springfields could use stronger springs,
that's at least a player in the game....and , since Springfield doesn't seem to
know how to correctly tension an extractor...you've likely got two things workin' against you. If you still get the stoppage, you've got a little excessive stem bind, but even that would occur on other rounds at random. Last round only points toward mag spring or extractor tension. While you've got the extractor out, make sure that the channel and the extractor are clean. Gunk in the channel gives the same problems as too much tension.

Standin' by...

[John]

Right on John....but where can I get one of those laser-phaser guns???? Pappy
Ask Wichaka, he is an expert on these gizmos!

[Pappy]

Ask Wichaka, he is an expert on these gizmos!

I should probably try the StarFleet retail store. Capt. Kirk prop.
I wonder if I'll need a FFL???? Pappy

[sparky3008]

Thanks Tuner for the welcome and reply,

When I mentioned hand feeding I should have made it clearer.
He simply put a round in the mag and the gun was not involved.
With his finger tip he pushed the round forward in the mag to try and demonstrate his theory that the top of the mag was not tight enough to keep the round from pointing upward too soon hence causing the gun to jam.

Now removing the extractor and trying this procedure would mean that the round would not extract and the natural function of cycling the round would go back to the hand cycling correct.

At my last visit to the range I only came to the thought that it might be just one of my mags. I think I will work with the mag theory for a while to see if I can get one to function properly and the other one to jam eliminating the magazines before going inside the gun.

I have 2 new Mccormick on order. I bought them Monday last week and am starting to wonder where they are. They are 8 rounders but i only plan on putting 7 in them.

Thanks

[1911Tuner]

Sparky asked:

Now removing the extractor and trying this procedure would mean that the round would not extract and the natural function of cycling the round would go back to the hand cycling correct.

Correct. It's mainly a test to see if the failure to go to battery is caused by the extractor. The guy who checked your magazine may have spotted something. If the nose of the round stands up
ahead of the rim, the mag may be bad. It should ride forward and exit in a straight line, following the angle of the magazine itself.

If the McCormick's that you ordered are the Powermags, that will solve the problem of mag spring tension...but they still don't have the dimple, which is important to the overall function of the gun during the feed and release of the last round.

Apologies to the McCormick and 47D fans. Just seen too much evidence to back away from that statement. ;)