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1911Tuner
18th November 2005, 10:54
And a bit of history and trivia to boot. Mods...If this doesn't qualify for the gunsmith board, feel free to shift it to where it oughta go.

Many new students of the 1911 aren't aware that the gun and the .45 ACP cartridge were designed together. Now, before anybody jumps in with the fact that the cartridge was there a few years prior to the appearance of the 1911 pistol as we know it...I'm aware of that...but John Browning didn't just sit down at the kitchen table, whip up the blueprints, and run over to Colt
to produce the first guns. The development for the 1911 began over a decade earlier...and the end result is what we have come to know and love.

The early cartridge was also a little different. It began life with a 200-grain jacketed round nose bullet with an initial nominal velocity of 900 fps. The U.S. government wanted a heavier bullet...and the rest is history.

Now...on to the technical part.

The gun...in its present form...and the cartridge were closely matched for functional reliability, since that was a high consideration for what it was being designed for. Not only was the mechanical timing of the pistol carefully
considered, but also the internal ballistics of the cartridge itself. In other words...the cartridge was co-developed to match the functional design of the gun, since they were to be a system. Powder burn rates and timing of the peak pressures...Area under the curve...were all as important to proper functioning of the pistol as the bullet mass and muzzle velocity. A balance was achieved, and in that balance emerged one of the most functionall reliable and enduring sidearms to ever come down the pike. Don't believe the myths about the 1911 being inherently unreliable. It's pure bunk. Find a good
1911 and use the right ammo...FMJ not required as long as the internal ballistics are right...and your sore, aching hands will give up long before the gun does, assuming that proper magazines are used for the feeding chores.

The problems began in large part when the latter-day engineers and ballisticians discovered how forgiving the pistol is in terms of ammunition requirements...and they started tinkering around with the internal ballistics
of the round. They used light bullets and high pressures. They used slower powder burn rates to up the performance of a cartridge that really didn't need much improvement. And in so doing, they changed the way the pistol functions...and that's not usually a good thing. That it does as well as it does is a tribute to the design...but it still doesn't mean that it's functioning
>>correctly<<...and when it's not functioning correctly, it causes problems
sooner or later. Moreover, the more the tinkerers push the envelope, the more problems they cause. The gun is forgiving and tolerant of incorrect function...but it's not without limits. When the guns...whether short or standard-length...start to exhibit functional issues that can't be resolved with a little attention to detail and proper magazines...it's telling you that its limit has been reached.

The gun...The magazine...and the ammunition are all part of a carefully matched system. Vary from the guidelines very far, and it will present you with your just desserts.

Emiddio! Ready...Set...GO!

rero360
18th November 2005, 14:00
awsome bit of history there Tuner, they should have you on the History channel for tales of the gun or one of the other like shows.

Joni Lynn
18th November 2005, 16:37
Thanks!! I enjoyed that.

emiddio
18th November 2005, 17:08
Emiddio! Ready...Set...GO!

sorry -- i dont get it. did you ask me a question ?

i agree with everything you said.

1911Tuner
18th November 2005, 17:09
But wait! There's more!

Early on, the GI Ball round was topped off with a 234-grain bullet at the same specified velocities. Exactly why...and when...that came to be 230, I don't know for sure...but I do believe it was sometime after the onset of hostilities
in the Pacific Theater.

Farnorth
18th November 2005, 17:12
Concise and to the point. I agree with your philosophy of what a 1911 is all about, functionality, pure and simple. Thank you for all your insight and I for one am waiting for that book! Greg

AnthonyRSS
18th November 2005, 17:24
Another vote for that book. Think about it - with the money you make off of it, you could buy a Les Baer with all the bells n whistles :p

Or a Singer 1911.
Didn't Rockola make 1911s?
Whatever. They all rock.

1911Tuner
18th November 2005, 17:47
Another vote for that book. Think about it - with the money you make off of it, you could buy a Les Baer with all the bells n whistles :p

Or a Singer 1911.
Didn't Rockola make 1911s?
Whatever. They all rock.


Les Baer with the add-ons? Nah. 'Druther have a stock Remington Rand.
Now a Singer...I might be willin' to do the book for a Singer!

From the looks of things...I may have to do one on barrel fitting just to keep the lads outta trouble. :D

garrettwc
18th November 2005, 18:06
Great history report, many thanks.

It provokes another thought. And supports a theory I have. Any semi-auto pistol will be at its best when chambered in the round it was designed for. This would explain why so many good 9MMs developed bad reps for their 40S&W models.

emiddio
18th November 2005, 18:11
Tuner -- i think i remember you sayin -- a proper 1911 will shoot without a recoil spring -- and the unlock timing will be within specs.

of course no recoil spring -- no reload and return to battery.

that puts it all on the main spring and weight/mass of the slide/barrel.

Kimber is producing a 10mm 5" gun today -- only difference between it and 45acp 5" seems to be the barrel/breach face (and recoil spring maybe). as far as i can tell the slide is the same wight/mass as their 45acp.

it seems to work; 38super in 5" works; 9mm in 5" works; 9x23Win in 5" works.

these Colt guns -- i have some of each -- seem to have slides that weigh the same.
Only difference seems to be breech face, recoil springs, slight barrel weight differece, bushing weight.

they all seem to work fine. have even shot 9mm, 38Super, 9x23Win in same frame/slide/bushing with just a different barrel and recoil spring -- but they would work without a recoil spring like Tuner has said they should before.

lots of different Momentum/Velocity/Energy between them.

appears to me the 1911 has a big window of different things still working.

1911Tuner
18th November 2005, 20:09
>Kimber is producing a 10mm 5" gun today -- only difference between it and 45acp 5" seems to be the barrel/breach face (and recoil spring maybe). as far as i can tell the slide is the same wight/mass as their 45acp.<
*******************

Yep...and they'll probably discover the same thing that Colt did with the early Deltas when fired with the full-power stuff...like the old Norma 170-grain load.
Crrrrraaaaaaaack! (Goes the slide)

Honestly, I've never handled a Delta Elite, and have only seen a few. I got the reports from the usual sources. Colt didn't fool with those very long
for some reason. If they'd studied the original designs, and noticed that
firing pin stop radius, they'd probably still be makin' Deltas today. Wonder if Kimber saw it...