Turnbull Restoration Colt 1911s

[SingleStack]

What does everyone here think of the restored Colt 1911s from Turnbull? On the one hand they're really pretty and look brand new now. But on the other hand you've refinished the whole thing and probably changed out some parts too so wouldn't that destroy any value they might have had untouched? Is it worth the 3 or 4 grand?

[1911Tuner]

From what I understand, they do beautiful work, and...whenever possible...use either the original parts or correct for the era. Even though there aren't very many GI pistols in the loop that haven't been refinished, I'd still be a little hesitant about sending an unrefinished original for the work. More valuable as they stand, even if they're a little rough on the skin.

An internal rebuild/upgrade with correct parts is another matter. If I had a well-worn Union Switch that didn't have the right internals...and they could guarantee the use of the correct parts...Sure would, in a heartbeat. A Rand or a Colt too, for that matter.

[RickB]

A couple of the M1911 "restorations" that I saw on the website clearly had M1911A1 grip safeties on them. I can't believe that they don't know the difference. If they do, and used the incorrect part anyway, I wonder what's inside?

[Buck T]

I called Turnbull a few weeks ago to see if re-bluing and re-engraving the USP stamp on the WW I Colt 1911 that I just inherited was a good idea. The fella at Turnbull told me that I was looking at about $2000+ and a six month turn-a-round for the process on my old, but solid w/correct inspection marks Model of the US Army from 1918.

I declined the offer. I am going to get one of those Colt archive letters (ouch....$100) and work on getting my grandfather's ( this Colt 1911 was issued to him in France) military records to give the gun a provenance to prove it's history and make it both more interesting and more valuable.

I will give updates as I get the info. I don't know how "speedy" the Colt research folk are. Weeks, months or longer for the archive report.

The gun is over 80 years old-what's the rush?

[dsk]

The removal of the USP marking is in and of itself a part of the firearm's history. A lot of ex-doughboys who brought 1911's back got the nilly-willies about illegally possessing a piece of government property, so the marking was often ground or filed off.

Just my opinion, but anybody who's willing to spend $3000 on a refinished WW1 Colt 1911, Turnbull restoration or not, is nuts. Besides, a 90 year-old firearm is supposed to look 90 years old, for cryin' out loud! It's like the dingbats who take a piece of dusty old furniture, strip the finish off, and give it a fresh coat of polyurethane, not caring that it dated back to the Revolutionary War.

[Johnny Peppers]

Buck T
If your serial number is under 289120, the shipping information is readily available. If the serial number is over 289120 you may still be able to determine if the $100 letter is justified. If you would like to post the serial number, or contact me by e-mail I will try to help.
Occasionally Turnbull has restored 1911's for sale. His prices are virtually the same as original condition pistols. I have seen his restorations on lever action Winchesters, and if there is a complaint, they are over restored. The rifles never looked that good when they were new.

[Doran]

I've seen some of the 1911 restorations. They seemed "blacker" but this was inside the building at Tulsa and may have been the lighting.

[Scott Gahimer]

Even the best restorations are still not original, and are worth only about 30-40% of what an original in the same condition is worth, as far as most sales indicate.
I agree many restorations stick out like a sore thumb because they appear too "perfect", and therefore don't really look like an original at all.
Why would anyone want to tie up the price of an original gun in a restoration? If it can't be done for a fraction of the cost of an original, what's the point?
I generally think only refinished and/or significantly and permanently altered guns are the only candidates for a restoration.
Nothing against Turnbull, but Bill Adair's work on .45s is in my opinion about the most original look of any I've seen. And Bill's prices are a lot more in line as far as I'm concerned.

[Buck T]

If your serial number is under 289120, the shipping information is readily available. If the serial number is over 289120 you may still be able to determine if the $100 letter is justified. If you would like to post the serial number, or contact me by e-mail I will try to help.

The serial number is 150XXX.

The more I read of these replies, the more I agree that leaving this old war horse "as is" will be the best idea. I think that I will just order a pair of repro walnut grips and install a correct flat main spring housing and leave it at that.

I'm going to send my father the US military archive paperwork to request his father's military records. I would like to have them to give the gun a history beyond the obvious Colt history. It would be great if my father had a photo of his father with this 1911, but as far as I know, there is none. I'll ask him anyway.

I'll keep the forum posted if anything interesting comes up.

[1911Tuner]

The serial number is 150XXX.

The more I read of these replies, the more I agree that leaving this old war horse "as is" will be the best idea. I think that I will just order a pair of repro walnut grips and install a correct flat main spring housing and leave it at that.


That's usually best. I think it gives'em character that can't be done with
"pretty." Whenever I salvage/restore one, I use the original parts when I can...correct parts when I can't...if I can find'em...and I never touch the finish beyond a little touch-up with cold blue here and there, and even then I try to buff and oil to get it to match the natural patina. Nicks and dings...I tell myself they got there in when the pistol got dropped or caught a little chunk of shell fragment at Belleau Wood or Normandy.

A true restoration would include the roll marks and stampings done under magnification, and an effort made to keep it from actually looking like it was restored. Tough to do and expensive. I had always thought that the restorers strived to maintain the true "look" to represent the gun's age,
and concentrated more on returning it to spec and correct function.
Refinish? Nahhhhhh...Not on your life.

[southriv]

I have an early 1918USGI at Bill Adair's for restoration ( and yes, I have seen Turnbulls work up close several times - very, very nice & also $$$ ). I think this particular piece fits the criteria for a restoration - all correct parts, no pitting and all the marks except the serial number, the inspection stamp and the rampant colt were carefully sanded off many years ago. The other type of 1911 I would consider restoring is the one which got a quickie reblue and may also have some parts that need to be corrected.

I think correct original finish guns with little finish that show character (as opposed to abuse) are too often mistakenly restored. Like anyone, my eyes pop at original 98%+ guns, but we must not ignore (or rush to refinish) those that have a story to tell.

Bob

[Johnny Peppers]

Buck T
The serial number range 150XXX covers three different shipments.

[exitwounds]

There is nothing like the real thing. If you want something new and pristine, be patient they are out there, for what Turnball charges you can get a real beauty that's untouched.

[harryvc]

I am new to 1911s (with my first presently on layaway), but I have been collecting guns for a number of years and I've never been attracted to "brand new" antique guns, they just don't have any history, having spent years in an arsenal, private collection, etc., without ever having seen any use or service. By my lights a brand new condition 1911, with a sky high price tag and no wear of any type, might as well be one of the Colt WW I commemoratives. New condition means the gun has no story to tell. Give me something with nicks and dings and "the hair on," that's character, that's history - like your scars and the wrinkles on your face, they've been earned. Used guns talk, they have an innate energy and you can feel it when you hold them in your hand. I suppose that it (partly) boils down to our purposes in collecting. If we collect for investment, then new is best, but make certain that you don't touch that pristine checkering, lock those guns away in a dehumidified vault to fight the elements and watch the prices rise; if the impulse is atavistic, a desire to be engaged with the past, to have a bit of history, then touch and hold and wonder what might have made that nick up there near the muzzle, wrap your hand around all those hands that held those same grips over the years. Feel the stories, but to each his own. Then again, I am a history teacher.

[Johnny Peppers]

That is as it should be, but scars gathered under Bubba's truck seat bring the same money as any other worn pistol without serious documentation. Only a tiny fraction of any type of military firearm has any documentation, and anything else is just imagination. A restored pistol has zero original finish, but put an original 98/99% blued 1911A1 up for sale and see where the interest is. Who cares where it has been, but someone thought enough of it to preserve it in it's original as issued condition.

[Scott Gahimer]

harryvc: Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your first 1911 purchase. I look forward to perhaps seeing photos posted once you actually receive it.

Regarding condition: Having purchased a few pistols directly from the veterans who brought them back and/or their families, it's been my experience to have generally received original pistols in excellent condition.
I've found most veterans who wanted a pistol bad enough to bring one home generally cared for them pretty well. I've found that even when those veterans passed, they often left their pistols to those they believed would preserve them out of respect for the veteran and/or his service to his country. Those same pistols have often ended up being sold for a variety of reasons.
There are exceptions. Pistols found in the attic, basement or garage after a veteran passes often show signs of poor storage or neglect. Extended holster storage alone often leaves irrepairable damage including loss of finish, rust and ultimately pitting. This damage has nothing to do with the military history of the pistol.
Secondly, these pistols were never intended to be a primary battle weapon. Even when issued in a combat zone, many were probably never really used. Additionally, the extent of time in a combat zone often varied. Some guys were there only a short time, yet may have seen extensive combat. Others were there a long time and saw none. But those guys all served, regardless of what medals they may or may not have received.
Many served on air crews. Others served on ships. Their service is just a valid as those who served on the ground, regardless of how much wear their pistols might have shown.
I believe most of these pistols received much better care while in the service than afterwards. Even though a secondary weapon, these guys still depended on them and took good care of them. I think most of the pistols that came back with these guys were in exceptionally good condition, and that most of the wear and tear, dings, blems, grossly mismatched parts, etc. we see today 60 years after WWII have resulted from post-military use and neglect.

[Scott Gahimer]

Regarding my previous post, here is a pistol with some pretty good offiical documentation in the National Archives. It is listed in the SRS database, from whom I received the documentation for this pistol.
This pistol was on the USS Cabot CVL28 during WWII. CVL28 was awarded 9 Battle Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation in recognition of her combat service. She and her attached Air Groups AG-29 (VF-29, VT-29) and AG-31(VF-31, VT-31) significantly contributed to the ultimate defeat of the Japanese Empire. CVL28 lost 82 men, including 35 from a direct hit in a Japanese Kamikaze attack on 25 November 1944.

USS Cabot Statistics:
Number of miles steamed since commission :180,880 NM
Number of miles steamed in combat zone :133,880 NM
Time in combat ::16 months
Number of strikes flown against enemy :114
Number of combat sorties ::4,933
Number of enemy planes shot down by air groups :252
Number of enemy planes shot down by ship's AA :8
Number of planes destroyed on ground by air groups :96
Number of ships hit with torpedo or bombs :265
Number of planes lost due to enemy action :27
Number of planes lost operationally :39
Number of pilots killed or missing in action :23
Number of pilots rescued from the water :14
Number of air crewmen rescued from the water :6
Number of ship's officers killed in action :31
Number of ship's men killed in action :51
Number of men killed by Kamikaze attack 25/11/44 :35

Remington Rand 976207 is a pistol documented as having been issued to one of those 27 planes lost due to enemy action (on 4 July 1944). Clearly this pistol actually survived, and ultimately came back home with one of the guys. It demonstrates the condition many such pistols were in when they returned home after the war.
The loss document dated 31 July 1944 refers to "Colt" automatic pistol serial number 976207. But Colt did not duplicate the serial numbers in this serial range. The records actually refer to this Remington Rand pistol. The pistol is completely original and has a Du-Lite blue finish.
http://tinypic.com/fxfaxl.jpg
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[harryvc]

Scott,
Thanks for the welcome. I'll post some photographs as soon as I receive my 1911. That Remington Rand is a great pistol and what a fantastic provenance, thanks for sharing.

Concerning my first post, I was simply trying to state my general philosophy regarding collecting. The 1911 will be the baby of my collection, with most of my pistols being 125+ years old and while condition is certainly always a factor, I just feel that used and not abused "says" more than show room condition. Not many Colt SAA's that saw real use, no matter how well tended, survived without a few nicks and dings, even if they did later (as someone else wrote) spend some time under the seat of Bubba's pickup.

Thanks again for your friendly response.

[exitwounds]

Scott, very nice pistol, thanks for sharing. Nice to see she isn't in the graveyard as the records suggest. Pristine for an issue weapon. I recall many pistols being in near mint condition that belonged to the top brass and topographers in my old unit.

[Johnny Peppers]

Wear or lack of wear doesn't equate to history, and the Remington Rand posted by Scott is an excellent example of this. To assign history to a pistol simply by the amount of wear it shows has no basis in fact. Many of the 1911A1 pistols were used by the military for only a short time, but have had 60 years since the end of WWII to either be preserved or mistreated and allowed to slowly deteriorate.
The US&S pictured below shows up in Springfield Research as Navy issue to the LCI (L) - 780 on April 4, 1945. Where was it before this date, and where has it been since that date? No one knows, but it has been beautifully preserved by someone who cared for it and it's collectibility is enhanced by it condition.
http://tinypic.com/fxwc43.jpg
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[harryvc]

Contention doesn't equate to discussion either.

[191145]

"A couple of the M1911 "restorations" that I saw on the website clearly had M1911A1 grip safeties on them. I can't believe that they don't know the difference. If they do, and used the incorrect part anyway, I wonder what's inside?"

Most likely you're seeing the customer's parts. The restorations they do are basically refinishes, not necessarily making guns 'correct', although I'm sure they will do that on request.